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Customer Forgetful Sleepyhead from Georgia Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
Nov 30th 2018 at 12:16:07 PM

I can hate a character in fiction even if they'd be a decent person I'd want to hang out with IRL because they can drag down the story. Usually this happens with me with lead characters; the boring ones with normalized personalities that take all the screentime from the fun secondary cast.

See, in this case, I blame the writers for poorly utilizing a character they added in. And instead of writing them out, I'd rather they figure out a way to better work them into the story/setting. Of course, I also accept that killing characters or shoving them out of the story are pretty much inevitable, but I have my preferences regardless.

And yeah, I also tend to like/focus on the secondary characters more than the lead, but I always tend to focus on the whole more than just specific things, so I may wonder about the comic relief's daily routine as much as I'd wonder about the lives and thought processes going through the heads of random mooks and bystanders as they're killed off for the sake of the narrative.

That said, is Honoka supposed to be a main character? I get that she's popular but I never got a main character vibe from her at all.

Honoka is just lazy, being a generic schoolgirl with a recycled model and moves and yet is extremely popular and I guess I resent her for that. Not as much as I hate Naotora, but that's baggage from Samurai Warriors.

-shrug- I suppose I just find "hate" to strong a word for a character that just generates apathy/indifference to me. That, or I'm just too jaded to be particularly bothered by Honoka's relatively generic design, especially since she's part of a series that's known for its fanservice and pandering elements (for better or for worse...).

I do sometimes wonder what is it about her that makes her more resented than say, Marie Rose, who in my opinion seems to be a very similar character in execution (being bait for certain otaku types, that is).note 

Ryu Hayabusa is the mentor figure of the game, the overpowered superninja who only steps in when he absolutely has to. It's as decent a niche as any has so far.

He's supposed to be a mentor? I always thought he was just Hayate's best friend, and only gave advice when he felt like he had to. Heck, I thought he threatened to kill Kasumi himself at some point for being a runaway shinobi...

While I think he should suffer some sort of defeat, I have a feeling that his reputation and popularity of the rebooted Ninja Gaiden games make it hard for the writers to want to justify him getting owned in DOA.

Actually, I've been meaning to ask the thread: is the story of DOA considered better (by fighting game standards) after Dimensions retooled it and Last Round continue from there? Or did people prefer how things were during Itagaki's time? Are there even any real differences? Is anyone even looking forward to the plot of 6?

Hari-HaraDigital Devil Saga
ShirowShirow Be creative from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Be creative
Nov 30th 2018 at 12:35:54 PM

When it comes to plot Dead Or Alive can be described in two words.

Wasted potential.

Look at Ayane's story. She's a Child by Rape who had to kill the man who raised her and is now on a mission to kill her half-sister, one of the few people in her life that has treated her with kindness, because the man she thought was her father ordered her to and she's desperately seeking approval from a world that shuns her.

That's amazing. The emotional turmoil that girl is suffering underneath her veneer of deflecting rudeness is ripe for some of the most poignant writing videogames are capable of.

And yet we get none of that. Any attempts at drama are fumbled due to lack of competence and undermined by constant attempts at cheesecake.

Dead or Alive could be an amazing story but neither the old or the new crew are good enough to tell it well.

He'd want you do be doing something awesome right now.
Darthwyn Great Old One from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Great Old One
Nov 30th 2018 at 1:37:28 PM

I think that could be said about most fighting game stories. Most have a hard time moving the pieces forward and with Ayane I don't expect her to get closure anytime soon and DOA won't off Kasumi anytime soon.

Chances are higher that if there is going to be anything significant done it would be with her would be in her own game in the same vein as Ninja Gaiden rather than a fighting .

"of course I put the effort into this day because I wanted to make more wonderful memories with you" Zhar
Servbot Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Nov 30th 2018 at 5:38:25 PM

Personally, I liked Hayabusa, but Dimensions soured him a lot for me.

I liked DOA because it's one of the few games where the women are shown to both be competent and the focus of the plot, with several of its big moments going to them. The first game focuses on Kasumi and her path of revenge and kills Raidou on her own. The third game focuses on Ayane's story and ends with her killing her adopted father on her own. While Hayabusa does kill Tengu and participates in the assault on DOATEC, he's mostly in the sideline doing other super ninja things.

Then Dimension came and retconned a lot of the big moments to show that Hayabusa did it.

What, you thought Kasumi is an extremely talented ninja capable of beating her uncle on her own? No silly, she's a Faux Action Girl who turned out to be over her head and needed saving from Hayabusa from Raidou in the end with a timely kunai (Why he didn't prevent her from being kidnapped afterwards is something only the new writers know)

What, you thought Ayane is a stone-cold badass killer kunoichi with a hidden heart of gold who is strong enough kill her own adopted father and succeed him as the new leader of the Hajinmon sect? Nah, she's actually a Hayabusa Fangirl and not only does she need the help of Hayate to beat her adopted father (because in this new timeline, it turns out that she isn't even the winner of the 3rd DOA tournament since Hayate beat her), but Hayabusa had to come in and do most of the work of maiming and immobilizing Genra.

Basically, Hayabusa went from Mysterious Protector to Spotlight-Stealing Squad for a second franchise, and since it was at the cost of the women that used to be the focus of the story, it has greatly reduced my enjoyment of the series.

Edited by Servbot on Nov 30th 2018 at 5:39:34 AM

Darthwyn Great Old One from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Great Old One
Nov 30th 2018 at 7:27:07 PM

Is dimensions canon?

"of course I put the effort into this day because I wanted to make more wonderful memories with you" Zhar
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA
vicarious
Nov 30th 2018 at 8:41:21 PM

Apparently?

I do love Ryu and Ninja Gaiden but thatís a different story. Never had dimensions so thatís a shame.

I miss seeing tournaments of 5 but itís to be expected itís dead with a new game on the horizon now.

I dunno if DOA should use its potential for dramatic story telling or just have fun with goofy and action while having fun character interactions

MacronNotes Butterfly Queen from Pennsylvania Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Butterfly Queen
Nov 30th 2018 at 9:00:16 PM

I am still upset they got rid of the individual storylines and character specific endings. I liked seeing different sides of the story through different characters. 5's storyline wasnt very enjoyable to me.

I really wish I still had my copies of DOA 1, 2 and 3 I had from childhood

Customer Forgetful Sleepyhead from Georgia Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
Nov 30th 2018 at 9:02:47 PM

[up][up][up]Yes. It's the rebooted continuity the post-Itagaki devs created prior to making DOA 5, retelling the events of the first four games.

I haven't heard much about how the story was ultimately received (which was why I asked), just that they (apparently, going by [up][up][up][up]) tried a bit too hard merging the DOA universe with Ninja Gaiden's, and if you weren't a fan of those elements, than it came across as shameless shilling as the NG elements appeared to eclipse the original DOA elements.

Edited by Customer on Nov 30th 2018 at 12:03:25 PM

Hari-HaraDigital Devil Saga
Nov 30th 2018 at 9:26:46 PM

Ryu Hayabusa is the mentor figure of the game, the overpowered superninja who only steps in when he absolutely has to. It's as decent a niche as any has so far. The problem with him, in my eyes, is that he's yet to do what mentors are supposed to do; get defeated by a Big Bad to raise the stakes and force the younger heroes to step up.

Yeah, they gave that job to Hayate. Thatís one more possible advantage from Ryu not being in this game; Hayate can actually show heís a skilled fighter instead of us being told that he is.

To be fair anything that threatens the existence of a lesbian orgy really should be detested. Actually, speaking of Eliot, why doesn't he have a crossdressing costume yet? Is that not something his fans want to see?
Given the type of demographic this franchise is known for appealing to, I donít think the creators are going to risk the backlash a crossdressing male character.

MacronNotes Butterfly Queen from Pennsylvania Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Butterfly Queen
Nov 30th 2018 at 9:35:40 PM

[up] But Eliot does seem to be the one male character that has a sizable that are actually interested in him being used for fanservice. Him being the only male character to have a glasses option must mean something lol

And in general, it seems the creators are more open to showing male fanservice in DOA 5 and on

Edited by MacronNotes on Nov 30th 2018 at 12:38:13 PM

Nov 30th 2018 at 9:43:37 PM

Elliot in a dress or a skirt isn't quite the same thing as one of the guys going around shirtless. Look at the hell that was raised when there was talk of toning down the fanservice for this game. Crossdressing Elliot will likely get accusations of "pandering to the SJ Ws" given the more visible support for characters that break gender norms.

ShirowShirow Be creative from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Be creative
Nov 30th 2018 at 11:43:35 PM

There was talk about toning down the fanservice for 5 too and we ended up getting half a decade of fetish wear for DLC.

The outrage machine is always best ignored, one way or another. You can't win with those people, they'll blame "Teh Ess Jay Dubleyuus" for anything and everything. Even Tecmo should know that by now.

Anyways, DOA hasn't shied away from manservice where appropriate. Just going shirtless is nothing, it's par for the course for actual martial arts after all, but they've put Hayate in a bondage slave outfit and seen how far they can take a plunging neckline on a male character. It's still absolutely nothing compared to what the chicks get, though, which is why I say they should go farther!

Although it should be noted in my head I didn't imagine Eliot in a skirt to be something that happened willingly. I just imagine him being the type Nyotengu and/or Christie would bully relentlessly given the chance.

As for whether DOA should focus on drama or silliness in the future: Why the hell does that have to be mutually exclusive? I don't think a truly great story can be made that doesn't include both levity and seriousness, so I don't see why we can't have Kasumi's killer family intrigue and Zack's absurd antics in the same game.

Edited by ShirowShirow on Dec 1st 2018 at 3:35:31 PM

He'd want you do be doing something awesome right now.
Dec 1st 2018 at 3:27:45 AM

It's trying to find levels of seriousness and levity that are appropriately matched so the audience doesn't feel tonal whiplash. Half the time I forget Ayane is a Child by Rape simply because it's so tonally inconsistent with how cartoonish and absurd this game is.

ZeroDozer Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!! from Santo Andrť, SP, Brazil Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!
Dec 1st 2018 at 7:30:42 AM

[up][up][up][up] Finally found someone that agrees with me that a Fighting Game with no character endings on Arcade is not enjoyable.

Growing up, it's like a civil war, don't turn away, it's something you can't ignore...
Darthwyn Great Old One from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Great Old One
Dec 1st 2018 at 8:47:17 AM

Considering some of the endings in dead or alive 4 I don't really consider character endings to be that important.

Hitomi's and Kasumi's endings were cute, but didn't exactly do much for either of them character wise minus Kasumi's dream probably being symbolic

Lei Fang pretty much murdered a guy in her ending.

So if the endings don't do much in a game series do we really need them?

"of course I put the effort into this day because I wanted to make more wonderful memories with you" Zhar
ShirowShirow Be creative from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Be creative
Dec 1st 2018 at 9:38:36 AM

Heh, DOA 4's endings where amazing just based on how WTF they often where. Plus it gave us such amazing outfits as Christie's bondage gear and Zack's teletubby alien.

I think Arcade endings are important. They help flesh characters out, and give everyone at least a little time in the spotlight. They don't need to be elaborate CGI sequences but they should be in the damn games.

He'd want you do be doing something awesome right now.
Darthwyn Great Old One from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Great Old One
Dec 1st 2018 at 9:50:20 AM

They flesh out the characters if they are not a bunch of joke endings or 90% of them being not even canon. If actually utilized endings are fine otherwise they don't really do much. At least for me they don't.

"of course I put the effort into this day because I wanted to make more wonderful memories with you" Zhar
MacronNotes Butterfly Queen from Pennsylvania Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Butterfly Queen
Dec 1st 2018 at 9:51:49 AM

I never played 4 so cant speak on it. (IIRC the endings in 2 and 3 continued the story or added background information for the most part) but I always enjoyed the arcade character endings. It doesnt really matter that they arent important to the story or characters. They were just fun to see.

Edited by MacronNotes on Dec 1st 2018 at 12:57:48 PM

MacronNotes Butterfly Queen from Pennsylvania Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Butterfly Queen
Dec 1st 2018 at 9:53:11 AM

Ugh made a double post

Edited by MacronNotes on Dec 1st 2018 at 12:54:26 PM

ZeroDozer Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!! from Santo Andrť, SP, Brazil Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!
Dec 1st 2018 at 10:04:57 AM

[up][up][up][up] This. And even joke endings can actually contribute to the lore. Take Asuka Kazama's Tekken 5 ending, for example, which is treated as a joking ending, but actually reveals she could cure Jin. Big shame Harada doesn't know how to handle story, which resulted in Asuka becoming Out of Focus in Tekken 6 onwards.

Also, to give another example, if Soul Calibur VI had as much as two still images and text to serve for character endings in Arcade Mode, I might have had much more interest in the game. This happens because I have no interest in playing a single story in a Fighting Game and then dropping it. My rooting is much more traditional and I'm not a multiplayer guy.

Before someone points out: I know, there are the side stories and Libra of Souls, and both are much better worked than Tekken 7 could ever dream of being, but still...

Edited by ZeroDozer on Dec 1st 2018 at 4:10:17 PM

Growing up, it's like a civil war, don't turn away, it's something you can't ignore...
Darthwyn Great Old One from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Great Old One
Dec 1st 2018 at 10:14:08 AM

[up][up][up] / [up]

Not saying joke endings are bad. They just tend to feel like a lot of wasted potential for a character. Asuka deserves a better ending rather than what she tends to get. Isuppose I am just apathetic over arcade endings not being a thing as much since most fighting games I play the endings seem to not add much to what a character is doing.

Considering every character in SC VI has their own story mode they don't need endings in arcade mode also.

Edited by Darthwyn on Dec 1st 2018 at 1:15:25 PM

"of course I put the effort into this day because I wanted to make more wonderful memories with you" Zhar
ShirowShirow Be creative from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Be creative
Dec 1st 2018 at 10:22:26 AM

I feel like the idea that Arcade endings and character story modes being mutually exclusive is a bad take. We can have both. And plenty of games, like Blazblue and Mortal Kombat, have done so and been better for it.

Have the Story mode be the "Canon" plot and make Arcade endings a special one-shot where your chosen character gets to be the one who takes down the Big Bad and see how that affects things.

Because Taokaka should have been the one to save the world, dammit.

He'd want you do be doing something awesome right now.
ZeroDozer Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!! from Santo Andrť, SP, Brazil Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!
Dec 1st 2018 at 11:10:26 AM

I am in full agreement with Shirow Shirow. Soul Calibur up to IV had character endings and very few of them (if not only Siegfried and Kilik's endings) were canon, and helped expand on the characters without exaggerating on the joke (save for Amy's IV ending).

Growing up, it's like a civil war, don't turn away, it's something you can't ignore...
agent-trunks Self-Loathing Hypocrite from Every-where, but there
Self-Loathing Hypocrite
Dec 1st 2018 at 11:53:54 PM

A sentiment I more than just echo with. Sometimes I feel like people are looking to be offended. It's not that I don't understand the hatred but it's feels like over reaction.


I have to disagree to a certain extent. Hayabusa is what got me into DOA but he does feel too powerful to be in this game's story lore



.....Is that really the reason? If anything else that just suggest he's in a lesbian orgy.


I doubt that's related to DOA at all.

That said, is Honoka supposed to be a main character? I get that she's popular but I never got a main character vibe from her at all.

It's heavily hinted that Raidou is related to Honoka. So she's probably related to Ayane as well.

He's supposed to be a mentor? I always thought he was just Hayate's best friend, and only gave advice when he felt like he had to. Heck, I thought he threatened to kill Kasumi himself at some point for being a runaway shinobi...

No, he was trying just stop Kasumi from meeting with Ein......for reasons.

While I think he should suffer some sort of defeat, I have a feeling that his reputation and popularity of the rebooted Ninja Gaiden games make it hard for the writers to want to justify him getting owned in DOA.

If VS Battle wiki is to go any by then Ryu is planet buster at the very least. So yea, pretty to justified that.

Actually, I've been meaning to ask the thread: is the story of DOA considered better (by fighting game standards) after Dimensions retooled it and Last Round continue from there? Or did people prefer how things were during Itagaki's time? Are there even any real differences? Is anyone even looking forward to the plot of 6?

IMPO, story tries too hard & not enough. It's too clunky for anyone to really get as much invested. So far DOA 3 seem to be how the story should've played out. I can't really remember but I recall each personal battle was seeing it from the said character's point of view. Still, fuck Genra. Stupid gimmicky camera angle bullshit.


Dead or Alive could be an amazing story but neither the old or the new crew are good enough to tell it well.

It's a shame but that just how it goes. It's too bad, but DOA 5 already tells me they really have no idea how to accomplish this.

I think that could be said about most fighting game stories. Most have a hard time moving the pieces forward and with Ayane I don't expect her to get closure anytime soon and DOA won't off Kasumi anytime soon.

Chances are higher that if there is going to be anything significant done it would be with her would be in her own game in the same vein as Ninja Gaiden rather than a fighting .

I more than welcome that idea.


Personally, I liked Hayabusa, but Dimensions soured him a lot for me.

I liked DOA because it's one of the few games where the women are shown to both be competent and the focus of the plot, with several of its big moments going to them. The first game focuses on Kasumi and her path of revenge and kills Raidou on her own. The third game focuses on Ayane's story and ends with her killing her adopted father on her own. While Hayabusa does kill Tengu and participates in the assault on DOATEC, he's mostly in the sideline doing other super ninja things.

Then Dimension came and retconned a lot of the big moments to show that Hayabusa did it.

What, you thought Kasumi is an extremely talented ninja capable of beating her uncle on her own? No silly, she's a Faux Action Girl who turned out to be over her head and needed saving from Hayabusa from Raidou in the end with a timely kunai (Why he didn't prevent her from being kidnapped afterwards is something only the new writers know)

What, you thought Ayane is a stone-cold badass killer kunoichi with a hidden heart of gold who is strong enough kill her own adopted father and succeed him as the new leader of the Hajinmon sect? Nah, she's actually a Hayabusa Fangirl and not only does she need the help of Hayate to beat her adopted father (because in this new timeline, it turns out that she isn't even the winner of the 3rd DOA tournament since Hayate beat her), but Hayabusa had to come in and do most of the work of maiming and immobilizing Genra.

Basically, Hayabusa went from Mysterious Protector to Spotlight-Stealing Squad for a second franchise, and since it was at the cost of the women that used to be the focus of the story, it has greatly reduced my enjoyment of the series.

Yup, was not a fan of that. Although to be fair, he also stole Hayate's thunder too so it wasn't just Ayane who got screwed that day. Although she still lost more regardless.


Considering some of the endings in dead or alive 4 I don't really consider character endings to be that important.

Hitomi's and Kasumi's endings were cute, but didn't exactly do much for either of them character wise minus Kasumi's dream probably being symbolic

Lei Fang pretty much murdered a guy in her ending.

So if the endings don't do much in a game series do we really need them?

I still can't believe she got applauded for her doing that.

I still rather have endings than no arcade endings, but if it needs to be sacrifice in order to focus on something better than so be it.


Heh, DOA 4's endings where amazing just based on how WTF they often where. Plus it gave us such amazing outfits as Christie's bondage gear and Zack's teletubby alien.

Zack always had that outfit. Apparently since the 1st game in the series


They flesh out the characters if they are not a bunch of joke endings or 90% of them being not even canon. If actually utilized endings are fine otherwise they don't really do much. At least for me they don't.

Soul Calibur 6 shows how to do it.


This. And even joke endings can actually contribute to the lore. Take Asuka Kazama's Tekken 5 ending, for example, which is treated as a joking ending, but actually reveals she could cure Jin. Big shame Harada doesn't know how to handle story, which resulted in Asuka becoming Out of Focus in Tekken 6 onwards.

That only reinforce how pointless they are

Also, to give another example, if Soul Calibur VI had as much as two still images and text to serve for character endings in Arcade Mode, I might have had much more interest in the game. This happens because I have no interest in playing a single story in a Fighting Game and then dropping it. My rooting is much more traditional and I'm not a multiplayer guy.

The cast of Soul Calibur has never been nearly as flesh out VI did. Those 2 image ending wouldn't have done nothing in the re telling of SC 1.


I feel like the idea that Arcade endings and character story modes being mutually exclusive is a bad take. We can have both. And plenty of games, like Blazblue and Mortal Kombat, have done so and been better for it.

Blazblue, yes, MK on other hand, no. Baraka didn't become the new leader of Outworld Forces, Noob Saibot isn't the new ruler of the Nether Realm, Nightwolf didn't become a werewolf, Stryker wasn't offer a movie for saving Earth Realm, Sonya still isn't guided by her father's spirit, Kitana doesn't have Mileena & Jade as the protector of Edenia, & Sub Zero & Scorpion still hasn't form the new Deadly Alliance. So unless MK 10 follows up on any of their endings then arcade endings are cosmetic at best unless it's Blazblue

ShirowShirow Be creative from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Be creative
Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:42:23 AM

I mean I did specify that Arcade endings can/should be non-canon just to show how different characters would react to circumstances outside of what the overall plot can allow without going off the rails.

MK does some hilariously weird stuff. Shang Tsung's ending in 9 is still one of my favorites. Even if these vignettes aren't actually "Happening" they can still be really fun, further flesh out personalities, let fans of a specific character see their main triumph and introduce concepts fans can mull over. Fighting games live or die based on their casts, and it's always a good idea to give each character every opportunity to let them shine.

Edited by ShirowShirow on Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:44:47 PM

He'd want you do be doing something awesome right now.

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