Why do Badass Normals get more leeway than Superheroes?

I think it's one of those things are levels. It's statistically unlikely that you're ever going to become a billionaire (despite what all those self-help books tell you) but in comparison to something utterly fantastic like finding out you're the amnesiac Norse god of Thunder or that you're the last survivor of a race of superpowered aliens, it seems somewhat more plausible.

Again not realistic by any means just slightly less out there than most of the other comic stories out there. But even if you discount the wealth all the Batfam members regularly do things that are impossible even with decades of karate training.

Under circumstances where something is up for debate yes. However we've already established that you made a mistake. You already as much conceded that point. If you wanted to continue, you could have simply corrected yourself and addressed the point, the real point this time. You didn't, you held on and chose to assign blame for your mistake, ergo, we're at square one, again.

This is veering dangerously off topic however, and into arguing the troper and not the topic. So I'll drop it.

edited 7th Jan '15 7:53:56 PM by SilentlyHonest

But even if you discount the wealth all the Batfam members regularly do things that are impossible even with decades of karate training.

Again, it depends on which timeline/continuity/historical period of comics you're talking about. Golden Age, Silver Age, Burton's and West's Batmen, for instance, were hardly uber martial artists. Good brawlers and gifted with some good martial arts, sure, but not exactly the kind of guys who coud have fought Lady Shiva in H 2 H.

The real point we were talking about was Rob's original declaration and its merits or lack thereof, and I have stuck to it. I don't count that as a mistake, personally.

Anyway, good night. I have to go sleep now.

edited 7th Jan '15 8:00:35 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

However possible it is, it SEEMS possible though, yes? Or rather, it seems reasonable. It's within the realm of physical possibility. Acquiring super-powers is, as far as what we know about the laws of physics tell us, is not.

Batman's combat ability isn't defined by what styles he uses. It's defined by its effectiveness. Early Batman was not an MMA-level fighter, but that's because he didn't have to be. He was an expert boxer and wrestler, which at the time was enough because Americans only respected those fighting styles. East Asian martial arts were some fancypants nonsense. When respect for foreign styles blew up after the appearances of Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and others, Batman magically Suddenly Always Knew That.

From the very beginning of the character, Bob Kane admitted that he was supposed to be a combination of Superman's heroism, Dick Tracy's crime fighting, Sherlock Holmes's sleuthing, Doc Savage's expertise and toughness, Zorro's flair, AND the Scarlet Pimpernel's political guile, on top of other factors. He was specifically created to one-up every one of those characters at what they were best at.

Thus, Batman is by definition designed to be someone who 99.99999999999% of the population will never be: the guy who will be better than everyone else at everything. And that statistic might as well be a mathematical 100%, because there's never been such a person and there probably will never be. Leonardo Da Vinci, a real life Renaissance Man, was good at a lot of things, but I don't see him being a One-Man Army.

edited 8th Jan '15 5:34:09 AM by KingZeal

It could be that Batman's abilities all have easily visible theoretical explanations, even if they're exaggerated beyond all realism, while the powers of modern Superman, Wonder Woman or the Flash come off as arbitrary, making them stand out as more unrealistic. I mean, it's easy to say how a batarang works - it's a throwing knife, sometimes with other functions. It's easy to believe how having all sorts of martial arts skills or sleuthing knowledge could work, since only experts in the field would know how improbable or even impossible it is. It's not the specific feat, but the framework that feels believable.

Similarly, attributing powers to radiation or genetic engineering gives a lot more leeway for the general audience to accept them. "The angrier Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets" is a display of total disregard for the laws of physics, but it's flexible enough to work in most cases. To contrast, it's not really common knowledge that Superman's powers are derived from Earth's yellow sun - meaning he'd be a pretty ordinary guy on plenty of other planets - so it feels like they follow no relatable framework, making them appear arbitrary and contrived... never mind when they really are, as with "super-ventriloquism" or other such inanities.

In general, the existence of superpowers by itself is a serious world-building exercise. Making a man fly just so you wouldn't have to animate him jumping around doesn't exactly show respect for the audience's reasoning capabilities. Taken at face value, it's an arbitrary rule locked in a black box - and nobody likes those. Conversely, not just the badass normals, but even the most exaggerated physical feats would get enough leeway so long as there's some logical straw that doesn't snap even before the inevitable trip to the fridge.

edited 8th Jan '15 6:12:20 AM by indiana404

Tell that to the bllions of people who aren't filthy stinking rich, and will likely never be able to get even close to being so. (Like me.)

I'm right there with you man.

I do want to point out that while outside the ability of many people, I did in fact mean that becoming rich, or an uber bad ass martial artist are things that might be possible for people in the real world, if not exactly feasible.

It can be done in theory, but not necessarily in practice.

To get that kind of training you'd have to be in the military or something of that nature.....I might be wrong about that.

Military training methods are hardly secret; it would be possible, if one was suitably motivated, to train oneself.

One of the main things I suppose that separates the super powered hero from the badass normal is, but for an accident, the super powered hero might be more or less unexceptional (barring an inciting tragedy or something similar). Badass normals are, if nothing else, determined and, as far as personality goes, extraordinary. They have the will to train themselves to ridiculous levels. While he eventually does the right thing, and he definately has moments of supreme determination, Peter Parker's waffling is pretty legendary. Batman hardly ever has moments like that.

Huh. From that standpoint, the super-powered hero might actually be more relatable...

What about Green Arrow or Daredevil? They Waffled all the time.

Daredevil may technically have powers, but they're only perceptive. He's pretty much a regular if not above average athletically and martial arts wise. Same for Green Arrow.

They both have serious issues with families, loved ones, and their own temperaments.

edited 8th Jan '15 5:06:31 PM by SilentlyHonest

The only reason that Green Arrow survived The Interregnum was because his creator kept putting him in back-up stories in the Superboy comics.

Same thing with Aquaman, appearing as he did in Adventure Comics (which became a Superboy book in the early '50's); helps when your creator is the chief editor of the Superman line...

Actually created on the same day, even. Along with Johnny Quick (who lasted almost long enough to make it into the Silver Age).

edited 9th Jan '15 9:31:12 AM by Robbery

Yeah. They were both made by the exact same guy and were used a back-ups in the exact same book.

I forget who brought up the topic of fighting styles, but I just wanted to mention that there are references to Batman knowing Juijitsu as far back as the '40's. The artists frequently only ever drew him and Robin either throwing punches or utilizing wrestling moves, but they at least paid lip service to the idea that he had a broad range of (not just western) fighting skills.

Really? That explains a lot.

I was browsing around, and I found a more streamlined reiteration of my above point, coined by Brandon Sanderson. In short, Sanderson's First Law states that "an author's ability to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic".

I do believe this can extend to superpowers. Thus, superpowers with plausible origins and explicit hard limits, or well-defined and understandable prerequisites, will inevitably be cut more slack for all sorts of outlandish feats that still follow them in some way. As badass normals and genius gadgeteers represent all but the logical conclusion of said law, it's not surprising their abilities and accomplishments, no matter how inflated, would be deemed more plausible by default.

I think you're probably on to something there. I've always felt it's important to establish what the limits of a given character's powers are, and be sure to stick to that.

Interestingly, there was apparently a minor outcry among some critics that Superman manifested a whole slew of new powers way back in Superman II. The ones your thinking of, certainly (the giant cellophane "s" and the holograms of himself) but also, get this, heat vision. The argument being, he hadn't used heat vision in the first film and, not being comics fans, they didn't know it was one of his powers. They did have a point; to them, it just looked like he was manifesting new abilities willy nilly. Also interesting: if you go back and watch the old Fleisher Bros. Superman shorts, if they have Superman use an ability the haven't shown before (like x-ray vision) they announce it in the opening so's you know they ain't breaking the rules.

Isn't some of it that action heroes have Plot Armor in general? What's funny is when Badass Normals have their version of Power Creep, Power Seep. e.g. Batman fighting JLA villians with no problem but getting knocked out by a thug in his own series. So, one issue he gets defeated by a thug, another issue he could take out the entire JLA! Maybe.

I recall a Batman/Superman story in which Batman fled from a large mob of armed hillbilly yokels, under the idea that they were "too many for me to handle alone." Very true, of course, regardless of how good a fighter he was, from a realistic standpoint. But come on...this is Batman!

Batman like most of the heroes is strong unless noted.