Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

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and then they felt entitled to everything Even though the Council races had given them ALL the Rachni Worlds and Several Garden Worlds for thier own personal development and DID HERALD THEM AS HEROES AND SAVOIRS

They invaded Several Citadel Colonies, Thier comeback to "please stop this nonsense and give back the colonies you stole, We're allies here" was

MAKE US AND TAKE THEM BACK IF YOU CAN

... looks like they got what they asked for when they got thier "Balls cut off" as Wrex put it.

Thats the thing The Krogan RUINED thier own reputation in the wake of the Rachni wars.

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Aug 14th 2019 at 8:20:05 AM

Oh yes, the Krogan of that period were complete scumbags.

But I think we need to stop going with the idea that Krogan are intristically unchanging.

Same for humanity, Turians, and so on.

This is not a Planet of Hats universe after all.

You're the one who kept insisting that the krogan were still a noble race long after the Rebellions, despite firsthand evidence to the contrary.

I think the Krogan are awesome and no worse than anyone else as well as saved the galaxy. They later do it again.

Basically, I respect pragmatic survivors.

I also don't think their history should be defined by their attempt to conquer the Citadel that one time long ago.

But it is THEM the ones who do that as a rule. There are living Krogan proud of the fact and resentful of getting their comeupance.

Edited by Eriorguez on Aug 14th 2019 at 4:07:08 PM

Yeah, it isn't them honouring their ancestors, or respecting their history.... there are literally Warlords and veterans of the Krogan Rebellions still around. It's LIVING history.

Krogan are a subversion of that Planet of Hats Proud Warrior Race.

On the other point made, the politics of the Universe are so rich that the Reaper threat did feel like an uneccessary oversahdow, as part of the usual Bioware "big picture" conflict.

They did the same thing with Inquisition - setting up the Templar / Mage conflict, which was a fantastic political drama, then throwing in a BIG BAD with WORLD DOMINATION plots and a weak motivation that derailed it.

Reapers could have been a main point that got dealt with in ME 2, with a lead into a conventional galactic conflict, now the unifying threat was eradicated... but that's the problem with trilogies....! That need to string it out into 3's...

Okay yeah at this point it's becoming painfully clear it's just charles projecting his Draco in Leather Pants on the krogans (and apparently quite a bit of Ron the Death Eater on the turians, jeez) regardless of the actual facts.

We've bascially reached full circle and can now officially say since you've decided to binarily equate the krogans to good and the citadel to bad, that you're Rooting for the Empire. The closest thing mass effect has to an actual The Empire, even.

I'll just point out real quick that should wrex die at any point throughout the series, curing the genophage is regarded as a BAD thing - because his brother that replaces him openly intends to restart the krogan rebellion if you cure it - You can't ask us to think the krogans have changed when the games show us very clearly they didn't, for the most part.

And yeah, check your definition of "long ago", some of the krogans that fought in the rebellions are still alive to talk about it. change comes with new generations, not just numeric years.

Also, stop that "pragmatic survivor" shtick - we just finished pointing out to you that wrex literally says their species are the one dooming themselves by throwing themselves into mercenary work for quick money instead of caring one second about their population. That's not pragmatic survivor, that's battle-hungry moron.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 14th 2019 at 8:34:01 PM

It's especially weird because Charles agrees with the way mages are treated in Dragon Age.

I'm Mageneto and believe in violent brutal overthrow of the system.

I think the setting loses like 90% of its interest in the Mage-Templar conflict if the mages aren't every bit the ticking time bombs people accuse the X-men of being, though. They're Warhammer Psykers and gateways to Chaos.

So, yes, people should be afraid of them.

It's just, well, you do what you gotta do to protect yourself and your loved ones. Black-and-Gray Morality.

Except that's not really why people are so afraid of Mages. Yeah, it's a reason to be worried about them, but that's not the heart of it.

It all ties back to Tevinter. "Magic is made to serve Man, not rule over him."

Also, yeah, trying to frame just about any conflict in Mass Effect as Black and White is absurd. Especially if you're trying to frame the Krogan as the White.

Edited by M84 on Aug 14th 2019 at 9:55:07 PM

I don’t see how the Templar-Mage conflict could possibly be more interesting if all of the Mages were abominations-to-be. That’s a literal black and white scenario, and that is far from engaging than the grey it should be and is.

Back to Mass Effect, yeah, I mean, I like the krogan too, but you won’t see me insisting that they’re purely victims in the entire setting. As the Reddit sub goes, Everyone Sucks Here.

Well, they are all potential abominations to be.

They have to be taught magic to control it.

It's just a question of who will do it and under what conditions.

And sure, we can move it to DA if you want. :)

The Krogan were pretty much an expansionist empire and more or less pissed away all the goodwill they gained from the Rachni Wars. The Genophage went too far, but you can't really fault the rest of the races from responding to the Krogans' campaign of conquest.

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2019 at 3:32:19 AM

Who lives longer, Asari or Korgan?

Hard to say, but both have had individuals whose lifespans exceeded a thousand years.

I'm not sure it's said specifically. I think it's said in the codex that only the Krogan 'rival' the lifespan of Asari.

And as M84 said, we've met in the games both Krogan and Asari over 1000 years old.

Yes: I don't recall any hard figures about how long the krogan live. I think the krogan companion in Andromeda, Nakmor Drack, is 1,400. He's started to visibly look old, but he's still running around shotgunning people. So while the game plays up his agedness, I can't remember if there's any dialogue to determine how many years he'd expect to have left. Mind you, I never got around to getting past Andromeda's first few planets.

Of course, both before and after uplifting, krogan were far more likely to die before reaching old age than the asari, whether that be down to their work as galactic mercenaries or due to life on Tuchanka itself.

Although, geez, not curing the Genophage feels so horrible in-game and it's clear it's led to the decline of the krogan species — but you go over these figures and blimey, that's gonna be some hell for Wrex and the Council to manage. A species that long-lived, with that strong a reproductive rate, with that amount of personal durability — I'm not saying another krogan war is inevitable, but given how big a galaxy is, that's going to take some pretty careful population control that goes beyond Wrex and Eve being personally strong leaders. In the long run, I assume there'd be krogan offshoots that don't answer to them.

I'm getting a sort of hankering for replaying the trilogy. I haven't run through all the games as an Engineer, so that could be interesting. Could try for a max-war-assets run; at long last, I will be one of the few to truly, yes truly, Beat™ Mass Effect. If I did, would any of you lot be interested in seeing me stream it?

Edited by Lavaeolus on Aug 15th 2019 at 12:12:18 PM

It's why I imagine that Wrex and Bakara had Mordin create a modified cure instead of an outright full cure. Even with their influence, I can't imagine the krogan not descending into another Rebellion if they get their full fertility back.

I'm hazy on a lot of details about the genophage, but were the krogans this long-lived even before it or did they become so long-lived as nature's way to compensate for the terrible fertility? Because if it is the latter there is a chance their lifespans would shorten generations down the line.

I think that Bakara indicates a big issue of the Krogan was that the females themselves wanted to control population growth to be more reasonable. However, the Krogan society prior to her were less powerful and thus continually pregnant to deal with the horrific conditions on Tuchunka.

In other words, population growth will be more reasonable from then on.

They were always that long lived.

Their Long-Lived nature is a consequence of generations of living on a brutal Death World.

The reason they didn't suffer overpopulation on their homeworld despite their Explosive Breeder and Long-Lived nature is because life on their world is just that deadly.

Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2019 at 7:31:23 PM

Really an even bigger issue for the Krogan is the Blood Rage, which is homocidal psychopathia as dianosed by the early Pre-Apocalypse Krogan.

Get that cured and the Krogan might be better off.

And the Yahg are even more vicious. Hence why the Salarians uplifting them would have been a horrendously bad idea.

The Yahg's main limitation is that their ultra competitive streak and pack mentality makes it hard for them to actually cooperate and get shit done. And even then, they were starting to design their first working starships by the time the Citadel came into contact with them.

The Yahg are basically an entire race of cutthroat lolbertarians.

Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2019 at 7:34:29 PM

Well they are already on the path to building ships so they will definitely be the next big galactic problem.

Biology does not work that way (re: becoming shorter lived). Don't pull a half-assed Lamarck in 2019.

Krogan are like turtles. Many die in their first days, but those who survive may live for centuries.

The Yahg... It is either having them calling the shots in a dictatorial way, or keeping them underfoot, where they'll comply but plan to overthrow their superiors... They have a mindset quite alien.

Hell, the Turians seem to have evolved from pack hunters as well, yet are far more flexible than that.

Edited by Eriorguez on Aug 15th 2019 at 1:36:37 PM