The General Russia Thread

This thread is about Russia and any events, political or otherwise, that are or might be worth discussing.

Any news, links or posts pertaining to the situation involving Russia, Crimea and Ukraine must be put in the 'Crisis in Ukraine' thread.

Group of deputies wants Gorbachev investigated over Soviet break-up.

Above in the Guardian version.

Putin's war against Russia's last independent TV channel.

No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 27th 2022 at 11:26:10 AM

Here's something that tops Gorbachyov. Translated it means - the Duma's Committee of Education is organizing a round table on the theme of "The Russian historic tradition: the content of the history schoolbooks".

The ridiculous comes in here -

According to the head of the committee Vyacheslav Nikonov: "[...] You always have to remember which country you are living and its traditions. Our Fatherland has a grand past. The branch of the Aryan people descended from the mountains and peacefully settled the Great Russian Plain, [...]"

You know, it is kinda unfair to wail on Russia so, but they are not exactly helping with things.

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?

I'm going to repeat the observation I made on the Crimea thread that this sudden interest in investigating Gorbachev for treason *curiously* doesn't extent to the three living perpetrators of the 1991 August Coup. You know, the ones who actually did try to overthrow the government (for which they got off basically scot-free) and more decisively doomed the Soviet Union than Gorbachev did.

Also, charging someone with treason for ending the previous regime after said regime is gone seems like legal nonsense. They could just as well posthumously charge Lenin with treason for overthrowing the Czar, right?

edited 11th Apr '14 12:52:59 AM by Random888

Time to play armchair historians! What, exactly, did Gorbachev do that ruined things so badly? And would it have been possible to do things better with our current historical perspective?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Basically, he's blamed for ending the U.S.S.R. and thus bringing about the economic depression and crony capitalism which dominated Russia in the 1990s. This is a hugely simplistic reading of complicated political history, but it's widely believed by the Russian masses in much the same way the American masses widely blamed Hoover for the Great Depression.

Pretty much. The issue is not with changing the regime, but with country breaking apart and people suffering economic hardship, complete breakdown of their way of life and crazy crime wave. They call it "Lihiye 90's" (something like "the dire/crazy 90s") for reason

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

But despite all that, you recovered, right? (Ok, not much, but you're better nowadays than 20 years ago).

@History schoolbooks: That doesn't sound good. What if they whitewash (if they already haven't) some of the Soviet crimes?

They already do - the rapes committed by the Red Army are generally glossed over, and the Baltics all had spontaneous socialist revolutions and willingly joined the USSR.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

They already are whitewashing some of them (Stalin is being presented very ambiguously, for one).

The 1939 invasion of Poland is presented as "the liberation of brotherly Ukrainians and Belarusians from Polish rule". Does not matter that it entailed a far worse regime. The mass deportation of Chechens and Crimean Tatars is barely, if at all, mentioned. And so on.

And Gorby supported Yeltsin in the Nineties, if my memory serves right. And he's critical of Putin.

edited 11th Apr '14 5:29:41 AM by emuran

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?

Then things are indeed getting worse. When even Stalin gets the treatment, you just know that brainwashing might ensue.

Gorby and Ieltsin being both critics of Putin doesn't hurt his reputation. It probably works for him just fine.

But Yeltsin is really-really despised in Russia. And being critical of Putin also earns you a lot of flak.

Gorbachev supported the Crimea annexation, by the way. And he's been very vocal in his disapproval of the "fascists taking power in Kyiv".

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?

I ask the mods to make a note that this isn't the bashing thread, for future reference.

The three surviving plotters aren't being actively sought, but they're also not being given new accolades either. The punishment at the time everything fell apart was to see it happen, from what I recall at the time. Now they're in political Siberia compared to Gorbachev, who's active in politics and punditry, even if he doesn't win any votes. That, more than white washing, is why he's being targetted right now. And I use that word lightly, because if he was being targetted by Putin, he'd be dead.

This is more the equivalent of a Congressman blathering on the fringe (which happens often enough) about something that won't happen, but is taken as "evidence" by other countries that the US has it in for whatever is being blathered on about. Just check out Dana Rohrabacher's nonsense on Balochistan. As such, I don't take the Gorbachev stuff seriously.

edited 11th Apr '14 5:43:54 AM by FFShinra

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

I know. I was kinda implying that with my post above.

Incidentally, Dana Rohrabacher has been defending Putin recently on account of "the churches are full" in Russia.

The man's an idiot, what can I say.

About whitewashing of Russian history - It doesn't help that the West isn't balanced with Russian history, to the point that the line between telling a more factual account and actual whitewashing is quite thin.

edited 11th Apr '14 6:22:14 AM by FFShinra

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

Give some examples, 'cause I'm not sure if I know what you mean.

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

Emphasis on Russia in WWII is usually on Stalin being just as bat-shit as Hitler. Their role in winning the war is usually secondary to that or to the Western front.

Or that the August War is seen as all Putin's fault while Saakashvili is given a pass, with self determination (supposedly an important right) of Ossetian and Abkhaz peoples thrown under the bus as a result.

Or that outside of Europe, the Russians had better diplomacy with other countries during the Cold War(and not just communist countries) because they tended to leave them alone if they didn't want to be part of the conflict, whereas the West tended to try to strongarm nations to join them.

Those are just a few examples

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

That's more a problem in pop culture than actual history books though.

This thread so far mentioned the War and Gorbatchov Gorbatschev Gorby mostly, so I wanted to see some more of these "few examples". I've seen mentions of both facets of the Eastern front, and I'd wager a claim that Stalin being batshit was swept under the rug for long enough that we don't really need to be quiet about it again just because the Eastern front saw the brunt of the fighting. Southern Ossetia was a bit of a fishy affair (the stuff with the Abkhaz even more so), I think there are ways it could be defended, but I'm not gonna try myself. I don't know enough to speak of Soviet diplomacy in the Cold War, I feel there too might be room for discussion, but I'd rather not try either.

In general, when you said Russian history is presented negatively, the parts of the Russian history I first thought of were the culture of the XI Xth Century Russia, you know, all these Pushkins and Chaikovskys, and I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of how could anyone say it's shown in bad light.

edit reason: I've snipped a repetitive phrase

edited 11th Apr '14 7:05:22 AM by lordGacek

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

Again, just because Stalin was batshit doesn't mean they shouldn't get the accolades. The West weren't angels either and they still get the "swept under the carpet" treatment.

Anything prior to WWII, I'd have to do more extensive research and I simply don't have the time. It's not hard to find examples, but I'm merely trying to prove a point that Russians get treated by crap enough by the West that anything they do to correct it can be seen as whitewashing. That's why I mentioned the Georgia War because the media/politicians (then and now) are using that as a great bludgeon despite the fact that it's a whitewashing of Tbilisi and, indirectly, of the West itself.

Ain't that the truth.

edited 11th Apr '14 7:41:06 AM by FFShinra

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

@ FF Shinra: That is of course if your History Classes actually do World War II — for example, only covering Nazi Germany up to World War II and no further.

Keep Rolling On

In the history classes I took it was made very clear that the Russians contributed alot to the Allies' victory in WWII.

edited 11th Apr '14 7:54:01 AM by demarquis

I actual had a course in university that dealt with this and it is not without foundation. The USSR was very interventioniset in Eastern Europe and other border regions but much more passive elsewhere in the world than the USA. The CIA was involved in a lot of government toppling actions everywhere.

And earlier, my history teacher was actually specialized in Russia so we did not have the problem of it being neglected regarding WWII. What came short was the whole pacific theater. It was all Europe.

I was thinking it might've been so that they counted on soft power rather than force or covert action. You know, instead of toppling governments, wait till the locals set up their own commie revolutionary movements. But that's just my musings. I don't know if I'm anywhere near any truth to speak of.

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

Also, charging someone with treason for ending the previous regime after said regime is gone seems like legal nonsense. They could just as well posthumously charge Lenin with treason for overthrowing the Czar, right?

I recommend you look up what ultimately happened to Oliver Cromwell. Death isn't always a bar to seeking revenge.

Anyway, tangential snark aside, I've always felt a little sorry for the Russian people. There's resources galore, but it's like the universe decided to shit on the place by saddling them with various loons, poltroons, and buffoons.

All your safe space are belong to Trump