Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

So several Big Bad characters(Frieza, Black Goku), a main protagonist(Jaco) and a main love interest(Future Mai) are listed on the EnsembleDarkhorse.Dragon Ball page.

Knuckles, Shadow, Silver and Blaze on the EnsembleDarkhorse.Sonic The Hedgehog page are all major characters with starring roles. Metal Sonic has been a Big Bad, so I don't think he qualifies either nor does Mephiles.

edited 6th Mar '17 4:14:48 PM by Monsund

Kill the first list with a Destructo Disk.

Chaos Blast the other list.

Only one I can't speak for is Mai, but the rest should go easily.

I'd remove it but last time I did someone re-added it.

As for Mai, she is given the center spot in the promo pictures for the arc.

Also Mai is majorly controversial in the fandom despite her ample screen time.

edited 6th Mar '17 4:14:03 PM by Monsund

Please PM the person to come here instead. They should discuss it properly. At this point, the edit reasons are irrelevant now, regardless of what they said at the time(if anything). I'd rather this just be taken care of easily, especially if we don't need to call in a mod. Trying to remove it again would unintentionally invoke an edit war(which could easily spiral out of control), where trying to discuss it could solve the issue better.

I rewatched Girls und Panzer because someone else did, and naturally had to fix a whole bunch of stuff wrong with the pages.

For this particular trope, on YMMV.Girls Und Panzer, there are a whole bunch of characters listed with more or less the reason, "this character has fans". Is there anything worth keeping, or is it a case of everyone being reasonably popular, which means there's no real darkhorse there?

I saw some of the edits and some of the deletions are weird.

Why was Baby Pan, Future and Gohan Bulma, Vegito, Pan, and Uub removed?

None of them are main characters and they are popular.

Wasn't Pan a main character during GT? And aren't Bulma and Gohan main characters?

Not super knowledgeable about Dragon Ball, but having Darkhorse entries on them does seem suspect.

Future Bulma and Gohan are treated as different characters, just like Present Trunks to Future Trunks. There are also several noticeably differences in their personalities. Future Bulma is sweeter and selfless to the point of being a saint, something present Bulma isn't. Future Gohan is more serious and stern compared to his present counterpart. And they both get little screen time, but the time fans did see them, they became beloved.

Pan is difficult to explained. Pan from GT is view as a different character by the fandom because of the way she was depicted in GT. She is widely seen as The Scrappy in GT, while Pan in Z and Baby Pan from Super are widely liked and separated from GT. Which is why I put Pan's entry in the Z section and not GT. The same with Baby Pan, she was in the Super folder.

edited 2nd Apr '17 5:26:11 PM by Ramona122003

All of those are major characters. They're not "main" characters in some cases, but still extremely important.

DB has a huge cast. There are less important characters, of course, but all of those are more important ones.

But Future Bulma and Gohan are not 'major' characters. Future Gohan was only seen in a TV special and bonus chapter in the manga. So, he really isn't different from Bardock. The same with Future Bulma to an extend. Pan didn't join the cast until the last chapters of the manga and anime. The same with Uub, so they weren't really implemented into the main cast. Baby Pan isn't a major character either because, she's a baby.

edited 2nd Apr '17 5:30:18 PM by Ramona122003

Canonically, Pan is the same person in Z, Super, and GT. Fandom cannot be used here.

That's a serious shoehorn.

Bonus chapters don't mean much. It's just Gohan from the future, but it's still the same person.

Young!Trunks and Future!Trunks are treated as different characters only because one has a full and proper arc to show how unique they are. We don't even see two separate Gohans at once from different timelines, so we cannot legitimately say how unique they are.

Either way, bar Uub at best, this is a serious loophole to shoehorn in characters. And no, the fandom's personal interpretation of canon does not count whatsoever and can be ignored.

As for Uub, from what I understand(this is why I can't say for sure on him), he's just a reincarnation of Buu that's a good character. However, we do see regular Fat Buu in his mind, so he's still just Buu overall, which makes whether he's a main character or not questionable. Rest are pretty much different versions of the same person(only Trunks is legitimately unique among all those listed due to having feats separately using his future self and his actual young self, but they also are both onscreen at once, which is the only reason you can properly treat them as unique characters). Rest are just the same person depending which of the series you watch, but most notably, it's part of an ongoing canon series. DB > Z > Super > GT. Pretty much ones like Pan are the same person in Super and GT. She's just more liked in how her characterization is in Super. That doesn't mean she's not a main character to the series as a whole.

Not true, since Super doesn't connect to GT and Toriyama did no writing for the show. So GT Pan would be at best an alternative version of the character. This isn't the 'fandom personal interpretation of canon'. The best example is the Star Wars movies compared to the EU books. So it isn't DB > Z > Super > GT. It is DB > Z > Super, since GT cannot and does not connect to Super.

Again, the future characters are not the same as their present counterparts. This is true within the series where Future Trunks isn't the same character as Present Trunks. It also holds true with Future Zamasu and Goku Black. This isn't something I or the fandom made up, this is how the show treats them. We also know how different Future Gohan and Bulma are since we seen their personalities in the TV special, History of Trunks.

No, Uub and Fat Buu are not the same character, at all. We also never see Fat Buu in his mind, so I have no clue where you got that from. Also, for the second, Uub is the reborn Kid Buu who is a separate character from Fat Buu.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:06:04 PM by Ramona122003

Another thing to keep in mind is whether or not the show even has an Ensemble cast or not. That's when there are a number of "main (or "major", if you prefer) characters", all of approximately equal importance and focus, rather than a main character (or several) and a number of minor characters. The Original CSI was an ensemble cast, the Original Star Trek was not.

Dragonball does not sound like it was an Ensemble at all. That would make any minor character who were later given more prominence Ascended Extras

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:05:59 PM by Madrugada

Dragon Ball have a set of main characters and then secondary characters who varies in importances. Some times the main characters can drop to secondary characters, say Gohan in Super compared to Z until recently.

Dragon Ball doesn't really have Ascended Extras. More like Demoted to Extra. The closest I can think of is Mr. Satan during the Buu Saga and I wouldn't call him a main character.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:10:50 PM by Ramona122003

That doesn't make it an Ensemble. "A set of main charc=acters and then secondary charagters of less importance" describes virtually every cast of every show.

The fact the the minor characters can be elevated to more prominence or the major ones drop into less prominence also does not make the cast an Ensemble or those minor characters into Ensemble Darkhorses.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:08:39 PM by Madrugada

Dragon Ball spans 4 different eras, all canon.

The roles and importance change outside of Goku specifically, so it's pretty much impossible to have a proper ensemble cast unless we remove every character who was important among the canon, and then we take characters who show up often but have little importance to any of the 4 eras. The list of those is super super low, if any. Yamcha was important in DB and pretty much a main secondary character, but less so in the other 3 eras, for instance. He still plays a role throughout most of Z as one of the main Z-Fighters, but is more or less cannon fodder(and canon fodder too with how much he gets defeated).

It's pretty much what you said, Maddy. That it's a series that doesn't have a proper ensemble cast due to how huge it is. Bulma and Chi Chi are about the closest, but then you realize they're actually major secondary characters and can't count. They show up in every era, varying roles.

It doesn't span four different eras. GT wasn't written by Toriyama and Toriyama more or less ignores it. So it doesn't fit within his work, so you can't just write off GT Pan as the same as Z or even Super's Pan. And it isn't "all" canon, just like Star Wars EU isn't canon to the Star Wars movies.

Pan originated in GT in the anime itself, not Battle of the Gods. While she did appear first in a quick epilogue, she didn't really have any screen time of note till GT, where she's a main character.

Regardless, Pan is a main character in GT, which does happen after Super. This means she cannot apply for this trope as is. That more or leaves Uub as the only possible contender, and being this show has a rotating cast of importance, it's better to leave them all off due to the series design.

With 4 separate animated eras, and a rotating importance, you can't properly have an ensemble cast anymore.

edited 2nd Apr '17 10:28:24 PM by Irene

The important part is really just how popular they are relative to their prominence in the work. A main character can't really fit for that reason, since that's the most prominent character in the show, and as such is expected to be the most popular one. A reasonably prominent secondary character pretty much has to be more popular than any other character, MC included. Does that fit any of the proposed characters?

Pan didn't originated in GT. She was in the original manga and the end of the manga. She wasn't a character created in GT. She was brief, but she clearly had her own character and personality that GT all but ignored. And again GT doesn't have after Super. There are several story events that goes against GT. They don't connect.

And that doesn't just leave Uub since, again, Future Bulma and Gohan are not the same people as their present counterpart, nor is GT Pan is manga Pan or even Super Pan since they have completely different personalities and GT wasn't written by the original author.

YMMV.Senran Kagura lists way too many characters as Ensemble Dark Horse. I can see Yumi qualifying (she's consistently at the top of official popularity polls), and maybe Ayame and Bashō. Thoughts, or should I just go edit?

Just go edit.

In terms of Dragon ball there is only 1 main character and that is Goku, the attempt to pass the torch to Gohan in the Cell arc was as failure. Everyone else is a supporting character of varying degrees of importance depending on the saga.

Umm Senran let's see. Yumi for sure, the guns under the dress thing Mirai did made her quite popular also memetic IIRC.

edited 24th Apr '17 10:53:00 PM by Memers

I removed all but three, since they had at least decent writeups.

Mirai is fairly popular (she did get first place in a poll Yumi didn't exist in), although "memetic" isn't quite the same as "popular".

I'd say that any character in DBZ that isn't a Saiyan can be, depending on the arc, "not-main" enough that they could qualify if they have enough popularity.