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DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#3451: Jun 11th 2019 at 6:42:59 PM

"The Vatican on Monday flatly rejected what it cast as the notion that individuals can choose their gender, releasing its first extensive document on the issue as Western countries are increasingly wrestling with the social and legal implications of more fluid definitions of identity."

Technically, people don't choose their gender, they discover it over the course of their life. But that probably isn't what the church hierarchy meant.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3452: Jun 12th 2019 at 2:37:49 PM

The Chuch is structually massive and unwieldy, so any progress would be slow by default.

Also, a very significant number of the episcopate and up are clerical fascists like His Eminence Raymond Burke. Not only is the Church a supertanker, but many of those at the controls are turning it in entirely another direction and encouraging hate.

Those of us who like Pope Francis like him because he's actually taking the "help the poor" part of the ideology seriously and putting it front and center, because he's trying to remind the rest of the Church of that and keep them from focusing almost exclusively on abortion, and because he excommunicated the Mafia on a trip to Southern Italy. He's not, however, abandoning the Church's position that the ideal state of being is a family with one cisman, one ciswoman, and 2.3 naturally-conceived children; nobody who isn't committed to that is getting anywhere near the Keys.

Edited by Ramidel on Jun 12th 2019 at 1:38:33 AM

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#3453: Aug 28th 2019 at 6:42:02 PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49494016

Things are happening in China. And Bishop Zen (?) from HK is calling out the Pope for allowing this to proceed.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
SebastianGray Since: Apr, 2011
#3454: Sep 1st 2019 at 6:24:59 AM

I probably found this funnier than I should have.

Pope freed by firefighters after being stuck in Vatican lift

Pope Francis has apologised for arriving late for his weekly prayer in St Peter's Square, saying was stuck in a lift in the Vatican.

The 82-year-old pontiff said he had been trapped in the lift for 25 minutes because of a power outage before he was freed by firefighters.

"I have to apologise for being late," a smiling Pope said at the start of the Angelus address.

He then asked the crowd for a round of applause for the firefighters.

Addressing the crowd, the Pope said there had been a "drop in voltage and the elevator stopped".

"Thank goodness, the firefighters arrived, and I thank them so much, and after 25 minutes of work they managed to get it started again," he said.

Television networks in Italy which broadcast the prayer live had been concerned the unprecedented delay might have been due to health reasons, AFP news agency reports.

In his address, the Pope announced that he would create ten new Roman Catholic cardinals next month.

Knowledge is Power, Guard it Well
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3455: Sep 1st 2019 at 9:24:45 AM

Hey, dude has to deal with things randomly going wrong, same as everyone else.

Keeping his sense of humor about it is classic Francis, though.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#3456: Sep 24th 2019 at 9:06:12 PM

More details on an agreement between the Vatican and Beijing on appointing bishops and whatnot from the SCMP:

An underground Chinese Catholic bishop has applauded an agreement between Beijing and the Vatican over the appointment of bishops in China, saying the underground Catholic church has completed its mission to uphold the faith and remain loyal to the Pope.

Bishop Joseph Wei Jingyi of the Qiqihar diocese in Heilongjiang in China’s northeast told the Vatican Insider, an official news outlet, that the underground church “has fought the good fight” and China had entered a new era where all bishops were in communion with the Pope.

The bishop was partly referring to a temporary agreement signed between the Vatican and Beijing in September last year under which Beijing finally recognised the Vatican’s authority over the appointment of bishops. In return, Pope Francis recognised seven excommunicated Chinese bishops who were previously appointed by Beijing without papal approval.

The agreement was hailed as groundbreaking because the Vatican has yet to establish official relations with Beijing. But it also drew criticism from some leaders of the underground church who felt they had been “betrayed”. Priest from northern China becomes first Catholic bishop ordained with blessing of Vatican and Beijing

Wei, 61, is well respected among Catholics in the mainland’s official and underground churches. He was ordained by the Pope in 1995 but has remained “unrecognised” by Beijing. He has spent four years in forced labour for defending his faith and was arrested on multiple occasions for his loyalty to the Vatican.

His interview with the Vatican Insider came after the Vatican issued a set of “pastoral guidelines” in June when some underground clergy were reluctant to register with the government despite the September agreement.

In the interview, Wei said he had no reservations or doubts about the agreement.

He said he and fellow Catholic priests in the diocese had asked for a “study session” with the local government so they could “better understand [the country’s] religious policies”.

According to Wei, the officials told them that Beijing’s position remained that foreign organisations were not allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of the Chinese Catholic church but the Chinese church shared the Vatican-led Catholic church’s positions on religious matters. Catholic Church accuses China of intimidating Vatican loyalists

He said that since all bishops were recognised by the Pope, the existence of an “underground church” in China has become moot or meaningless.

“I reiterated that for me, personally speaking, the underground church in China existed to maintain the integrity of [the Catholic] faith,” Wei said. “The meaning of an underground church [to continue to exist] has been lost now because this purpose has been fulfilled.”

Dr Anthony Lam Sui-ki, of the Hong Kong-based Holy Spirit Study Centre, said Wei’s comments reflected his personal faith and should not be seen as an appeal for the underground church in China to follow.

“I think his comment indicates his readiness to put himself in the hands of God including giving up his position [as bishop],” Lam said.

“There is going to be a long transition period for Chinese underground churches adapting to the changes [because of the agreement] since they have been established for more than four decades and they will not disappear overnight.”

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#3457: Oct 3rd 2019 at 10:13:15 PM

Another interesting article

Catholic bishops consider married priests, face opposition

MANUEL RUEDA Associated Press 4 October 2019

SANTA ROSA, Brazil (AP) At dusk in this small indigenous village, Antelmo Pereira calls Catholics to prayer, changes into a white robe and leads a religious service that is the closest thing the faithful in this remote part of the Amazon can get to a proper Mass.

Speaking in the indigenous Ticuna language, he leads a recital of the Lords Prayer, reads a passage from the Gospel of Matthew and delivers a sermon on accepting Jesus into ones heart, as cicadas chirp loudly in the jungle that lies just beyond the recently built Catholic church.

Pereira, 61, has been a part-time missionary for the past 15 years, volunteering his time on weekends to visit indigenous communities that rarely see a priest. He leads prayer services called Celebrations of the Word but cannot celebrate Mass or hear confessions from Catholics in the isolated places that he visits because hes married, has nine children and cannot become a priest.

But that could change if a proposal to ordain married men in remote parts of the Amazon gains traction at a gathering of bishops that opens at the Vatican Sunday.

More than 100 bishops from South America will convene at the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon Region. The meeting will discuss social and environmental problems faced by the inhabitants of the Amazon but bishops are also looking at ways to introduce changes to official ministries to better serve Catholics in this part of the world.

One item on the agenda is a proposal to study priestly ordination for older men who have good standing in their communities and are preferably of indigenous origin, even if they have an established and stable family.

While the proposal would be novel for the Latin Rite church, there are already married priests in Eastern Rite Catholic churches and in cases where married Anglican priests have converted.

Nevertheless, the proposal has set off a firestorm of criticism of Pope Francis, with opponents accusing synod organizers of heresy for even introducing debate on the centuries-old tradition of a celibate priesthood in the Latin Rite church.

On the ground, however, the agenda and focus on the needs of the indigenous have been welcomed.

Since 1970, the number of priests around the world has remained steady, hovering at 400,000 to 415,000, according to Catholic Church figures. But the worlds Catholic population has doubled to 1.3 billion, leading to shortages of priests in some parts of the globe.

In remote Amazonian communities that are only accessible by boat, villagers can go months without sacraments that only priests can celebrate, including communion and confessions.

We have to think if the way that we have structured our ministries, the way in which men and women participate in the church must remain as it is or if some changes must be made, said Bishop Jos Javier Travieso, of San Jos del Amazonas in northern Peru.

His vicariate in the Peruvian Amazon covers an area the size of Portugal, but only has 14 priests to serve a population of approximately 140,000 Catholics.

Because of the shortages, some clergy have begun training lay members of their parishes to perform Celebrations of the Word that are similar to Mass but dont include the consecration of the Eucharist, which can only be celebrated by a priest.

In Belm do Solimes, a small indigenous town on the banks of the Amazon River, Capuchin Friar Paulo Braghini has trained seven members of his parish, including Pereira, who has also been training to be ordained a deacon, a position open to married men.

On the third weekend of every month, the friar, Pereira and dozens of missionaries leave Belm and fan out into villages that are located deeper in the jungle.

Ercilio Gaspar, a public health worker in the village of Novo Cruzador, realizes its not the same as Mass, but said hes happy with what the missionaries have accomplished. For us, Antelmo (Pereira) and his team are like our priests, he said.

But in other villages along the Amazon River, some churchgoers support the ordination of community elders.

For Policarpa Bautista, a Ticuna leader in the Colombian village of Ararara, sustaining the faith is important, especially given that evangelical churches are gaining a foothold in the region.

Bautista said evangelical missionaries preach against indigenous rituals that can involve drinking large quantities of fermented beverages and revering the spirits of the Amazon jungle.

Catholic missionaries are supportive of these traditions, Bautista said.

We have been Catholic for a long time, and having two churches will divide our communities, Bautista said.

But Catholic conservatives argue that the church would be abandoning its own beliefs if it begins to ordain married men to make up for priest shortages.

Even one of Francis top advisers at the Vatican, Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet, said hes skeptical about the married priest proposal and suggested Francis shared his skepticism.

Ouellet praised the evangelical value of the celibate priesthood, noting that indigenous people were first converted to the Catholic faith by celibate priests whose decision to sacrifice a family was a powerful and visible confession of faith.

His view is shared by some of the more vocal opponents to the synod.

Pereira, who is a member of the Ticuna tribe, and would be a clear candidate for ordination if Pope Francis decides to pursue the reform, said he wanted to become a priest when he was in his 20s, before he had children.

But he was discouraged because the nearest seminary was a couple days away by boat and he hadnt finished elementary school, which made the priesthood unlikely.

That barrier is gone. Pereira completed his basic studies and obtained a university degree in his 50s, majoring in Ticuna language studies.

He teaches Ticuna at the elementary school in Belm do Solimes and recently helped translate a childrens catechism book into the indigenous language. This is a strict path that not everyone is willing to follow, he said. In my community we need more people to announce the word of God.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#3458: Oct 7th 2019 at 7:44:04 PM

The battle continues against conservatives in the Vatican:

Pope urges conservatives to be open to changes in Church By Philip Pullella, Reuters Sun, 6 Oct 6:43 PM GMT+8

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis appealed to conservatives on Sunday not to be bound by the status quo as he opened an assembly of bishops to discuss the future of the Roman Catholic Church in the Amazon, including the possibility of introducing married priests.

At a Mass in St. Peter's Basilica opening the synod, Francis also denounced past and present forms of colonialism and said some of the fires that devastated forests in Brazil in recent months were set by special interest groups.

In his sermon, Francis said some Church leaders risked becoming "bureaucrats, not shepherds", and urged them to have the courage of rekindling what he called the fire of God's gift by being open to change.

"If everything continues as it was, if we spend our days content that 'this is the way things have always been done', then the gift vanishes, smothered by the ashes of fear and concern for defending the status quo," he said.

One of the most contentious topics of the synod, whose some 260 participants are mostly bishops from the Amazon, is whether to allow older married "proven men" with families and a strong standing in local communities to be ordained as priests in the Amazon.

This solution to the shortage of priests, backed by many South American bishops, would allow Catholics in isolated areas to attend Mass and receive the sacraments regularly. At least 85% of villages in the Amazon, a vast region that spans eight countries and the French territory of Guiana - cannot celebrate Mass every week. Some see a priest only once a year.

Conservative opponents fear it would be a doctrinal Trojan horse that would then spread to the entire Church in the West.

HERESY AND ERROR

They have attacked the synod's working document as heretical, including what they say is an implicit recognition of forms of paganism and pantheism practised by indigenous people, such as nature worship.

The three-week synod will discuss spreading the faith in the vast region, a greater role for women, environmental protection, climate change, deforestation, indigenous people and their right to keep their land and traditions.

Bill Donohue, president of the U.S.-based Catholic League, a conservative group, drew criticism for what was perceived as a condescending attitude toward native cultures when he said this week that a dilemma in the Amazon was "how to respect the culture of indigenous peoples while at the same time acknowledging inherent deficiencies in it."

A number of conservatives have tweeted their disapproval of a three-planting ceremony in the Vatican on Thursday in which people from the Amazon used native symbols and gestures, such as blessing the earth.

In his sermon, Francis said indigenous cultures had to be respected.

"When peoples and cultures are devoured without love and without respect, it is not God’s fire but that of the world. Yet how many times has God’s gift been imposed, not offered; how many times has there been colonization rather than evangelization!" he said.

The synod is taking place at a time when the Amazon is in the world spotlight because of the devastating fires in Brazil. Francis implied that he believed at least some of the fires were intentionally set.

"The fire set by interests that destroy, like the fire that recently devastated Amazonia, is not the fire of the Gospel (which is) fed by sharing, not by profits," he said.

The synod does not make decisions. Participants vote on a final document and the pope will decide which recommendations to integrate into his future rulings.

Edited by Ominae on Oct 7th 2019 at 7:46:04 AM

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: My own grandpa
#3459: Oct 8th 2019 at 2:46:51 PM

This first dispatch from an onsite observer sets out matters pretty well. A lot of conservative critics would do well to observe & listen before going off half-cocked and inveighing against stuff that hasn't even happened. At the same time, I fear there are indeed some bad actors, with close links to the Holy Father, who'd like to use the current synod for heterodox purposes. Something to keep careful tabs on.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
Joyce Since: Apr, 2009
#3460: Oct 13th 2019 at 11:12:30 AM

John Henry Newman, Englishman and participator in the Oxford movement is being canonized today 🙂

Move confidently in the direction of your dreams.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3461: Oct 13th 2019 at 12:57:34 PM

The same ceremony also canonized Sister Dulce, a nun who was famous for her extensive work housing, feeding and educating those in the most desperate levels of poverty.

This makes her the first Brazilian saint.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#3462: Oct 27th 2019 at 12:14:01 AM

So the bishops are backing the idea and formally requesting the pope to allow married men with families to be anointed as priests in the Amazonas, provided of course the character of the man in question is found to be exemplary. (Source by BBC)

What I don't understand is why only in that region? They say the reason to even bring up the idea there was a shortage of priests, but isn't that the case generally around the world too? And what about allowing people to be priests and marry later?

As far as I remember, the celibacy came in much later, during the Middle Ages, so that church property would not be divvied up among the sons of clergy and so it won't stop being church property the moment a son of clergy says he doesn't want to be a priest/monk.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3463: Oct 27th 2019 at 12:40:04 AM

There's already an exemption to the rule in the Catholic Church regarding married priests.

The Anglican Church, for complicated (and possibly nonsensical) reasons, is still considered part of the Catholic Church — just out of step with Rome. As such, if you are an Anglican Priest and get married then you can get yourself ordained as a priest of the Catholic Church and your marriage will be unaffected.

Given the way the CC works, I wouldn't be surprised if this is meant as a test bed to slowly easy the church into dissolving the orders of celibacy as a requirement.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 27th 2019 at 12:41:28 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#3464: Oct 27th 2019 at 12:48:15 AM

[up] Ok I've somehow always thought the Church of England being vehemently against the pope would preclude them from being counted as Catholic but I stand corrected it seems.

As for this being a test run, that may make sense actually.

Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3465: Oct 27th 2019 at 12:56:51 AM

[up][up]It's not part of the Catholic Church, but as part or recent ecumenical programs, there's an exemption existing for Anglican priests who convert to the Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic Churches already allow married priests as well.

It's not a testbed so much as a reconciliation, but you're right that it is causing the view to shift.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#3466: Oct 27th 2019 at 2:39:09 AM

They should allow priests to get married, not only because it could halt the decline in the number of them and possibly help with the sexual repression matter, but also because loving people with all your heart doesn't mean there's no space left for God.

Life is unfair...
raziel365 Anka Aquila from The Far West Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3467: Oct 27th 2019 at 9:14:46 AM

My counterargument for having married priests is pointing out the historical reason why they can’t get married in the first place: The Saeculum Obscurum.

Allowing priests to marry runs the risk of creating dynastic lineages of priests in areas where there’s not enough reach of the Church, with all the problems that come with it.

Edited by raziel365 on Oct 27th 2019 at 9:16:58 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#3468: Oct 27th 2019 at 10:26:20 AM

A counter-counterargument to that might be that introducing the celibacy not only brought its own problems, but failed to solve even old ones: corruption was ripe in the renaissance church, and even nepotism didn't die out as the Borgias proved. There was a reason Luther wanted to introduce changes to the Catholic church (and he would have been the last to say he set out to create a completely new one, remember).

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3469: Oct 27th 2019 at 11:09:15 AM

Not to mention that clerical dynasties came about mainly due to a lot of higher-ranking priests being from noble families themselves.

And in the end priesthood is a job - a job with long-term responsibilities, but still a job - and last I checked, most jobs can't be passed down to descendents (outside of family-run businesses).

Celibacy not only has lost the practical value it was implended for, but there's also no clear-cut scriptural justification for it either (while Jesus did speak well of celibacy, he acknowleded that it wasn't for everyone).

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: My own grandpa
#3470: Oct 27th 2019 at 11:09:56 AM

I'm open to the argument for married priests ... but in this day and age celibacy is so utterly contra mundum that I think it almost has to be a good thing, or at least deserves every benefit of the doubt. And I don't think the problem with the Amazon would be lack of priests if the hierarchy was really bent on providing them: as one smart-aleck pointed out, there are hundreds of deadwood priests walking the streets of the Vatican that the Holy See could ship to S.A. tomorrow if it wanted.

Edited by Jhimmibhob on Oct 27th 2019 at 2:13:12 PM

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3471: Oct 28th 2019 at 11:40:29 AM

Yeah, but would the deadwood actually be any good at their ministry? Since priesthood is not a state that is removed for mere incompetence, the Vatican has to be able to put deadweight clerics where they can't do any harm but can still be supported.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: My own grandpa
#3472: Oct 28th 2019 at 3:06:36 PM

Well, I think the guy was joking. But to take it seriously, they're not so much incompetents as they are a profusion of clerical bureaucrats and politickers that the Church needs a lot less than She needs priests in the field preaching, converting, and administering the Sacraments. Getting in touch with the whole REASON for their Holy Orders might prove good for their own souls, as well as their new flocks'.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#3473: Oct 28th 2019 at 3:35:55 PM

[up]And being married prevents any of that, how? <raised High Anglican> <extra-arched eyebrow>

Vicar's wives have traditionally helped carry a lot of the burden of running the parish, you know (most of it social). Going back centuries here in the UK. Well, we now also have vicar's husbands carving their niches out (that was long overdue, and all).

Heck, for that matter... how's about female priests? Like, in the really early days, when the Church was a mere spring chicken and "Constantine" but a name on the distant horizon.

Half the flipping world is a woman. We can do way more than just nun it up.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 28th 2019 at 10:47:55 AM

Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3474: Oct 28th 2019 at 3:47:38 PM

You mean that women might actually have religious leadership over men?

heresymeme.gif

Edited by Ramidel on Oct 28th 2019 at 2:49:27 AM

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3475: Oct 28th 2019 at 3:53:36 PM

Female Priests seem like the sort of thing that would take decades to actually get done and be a ecumenical nightmare of Church in-fighting (the elephant in the room being if women can become priests, they can logically become Popes, which is a whole other ballgame) but what I feel might work better would be increasing the authority of nuns up until the point they can manage parishes and conduct masses and go on from there.

And then have Nuns finally get the authority to conduct exorcisms.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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