The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

How many of "his" letters had their authorship confirmed?

From Wikipeida,

Here is the list of the ones that are considered undisputed.

First Thessalonians, Galatians, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, Romans,

These are ones that are questioned, but might be.

Ephesians, Colossians, Second Thessalonians,

These are the ones that are generally considered a probably not

First Timothy, Second Timothy, Titus

The book of Hebrews is on the list for definitely not, but it was never really claimed to be Pauline in the first place.

Edited by Soban on May 15th 2019 at 9:38:39 AM

I was stunned to find out that the Trump "blesssing" coins are being sold by former televangelist (and imprisoned con man) Jim Bakker.

That guy is still around?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 6:25:29 AM

I think you mistook the thread.

Well it's the general religion and he's a televangelist Jesus would whip for "Gold Coins to bless Trump, available for $45."

Oh right, it just seemed like something intended for the US politics thread posted here by accident.

My bad.

It lacked some valuable context that it was a matter of religious corruption.

should be 30 silver coins

what?

You know what they say to people with that much silver? "You are so very talented!"

*groans*

Oh good God...

30 silver coins is about $125 in today's currency.

Comically Small Bribe, much? Do you think the Three Versions of Judas hypothesis holds water?

What do you think of this short story? I somehow find it very heartwarming... It's about a theologian who comes up with the following Conspiracy Theory; Judas Iscariot fulfilled his evil destiny and went to Hell on purpose so that Jesus could do his thing. I think Jesus Christ Superstar used that same plot? Or am I remembering wrong?

Edited by Oruka on May 16th 2019 at 1:52:00 AM

x5 Boooo! {lobs rotten tomatoes at the stage}

I think there's a very good argument that when peer pressured by the leading religious authorities of the day that a person might cave.

Re: Bakker

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27478606/jim-bakker-pray-coin-president-donald-trump-45/

And Jim Bakker and Falwell Junior supporting Trump more or less confirms every Christian should be against him. The "praying over a golden image of a man to make money for yourself" could only be less Rabbi Ben Joseph's ministry if one of the side of the coin celebrated murder.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 4:36:29 AM

@Oruka: I'd say there's an argument to be made, in any work or analysis that doesn't just portray Judas as a flat evil idiot, that the sacrifice that most matters for Christianity was Judas's. Both he and Pontius Pilate will be vilified pretty much for as long as Christianity is practiced, despite being the ones instrumental to setting up the Death and Resurrection that are central to the doctrine.

(Yeah, I guess you could just as easily say that every villain is the true hero of the story, because if the villain didn't start doing evil things, the hero wouldn't have a villain to defeat, but with things like Judas's later suicide and God's proven tendency to "harden people's hearts" when He needs certain outcomes...)

I guess it could also relate to... what, fourth- or fifth-wave analysis suggesting things like Satan being an ally of Heaven, and working as a levier of tests and temptations for people to overcome? I usually tend to see that in more lighter-and-softer takes and in some Japanese stuff, interestingly. It does skirt handily around the "then whence cometh evil" part of Epicurus's trilemma and the question of what kind of merciful God would allow eternal suffering if Hell existed as described, though motivating by existential fear is kind of suspect on its own.

My basic opinion is that while it's interesting to imagine fascinating interpretations of Judas, the "he did it because they were religious authorities and he was paid" has its own merit. Making him a martyr seems like going a bit too much against the grain like, "Lex is the real hero."

^Yeah, perhaps that's a bit too strong of a phrasing. My point is that even if he did it completely unknowingly, he was a useful pawn for God who was instrumental in setting up the Resurrection, and it seems kind of really harsh to punish him for eternity for a betrayal that was planned by God.

I'd argue it's a case of Nice Job Fixing It, Villain. Also worth noting is that, even if the actions of Judas (and by extension, Satan) resulted in good things, they did still have bad intentions while doing it.

Intent matters, regardless of the ultimate results.

Edited by M84 on May 17th 2019 at 12:47:26 AM

Isn't Satan being all that evil and stuff kind of a later misconception? Originally Job was tormented because God asked "Satan" to test him.

More or less. I read somewhere that shaitan was more a job description for various angels in various sources. Testing peoples faith and all that jazz.

Intent matters, sure, but it still seems wrong to condemn him for eternity. I looked into it a bit, and in Matthew 27 Judas expresses remorse, throws the money, and goes to hang himself. There's also John 17:12, where Jesus calls him 'the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled', which again sounds like it was all by a design far above Judas's spiritual pay grade.

I guess in the end it boils down to the same question that's bothered people for centuries. How do you reconcile a loving God with a system of punishment designed around torture that goes on literally forever? (I have to admit, I'm also a little bothered by the almost gleeful tone some of the sites I checked took on the matter. One site even took it as far as a kind of reverse Immaculate Conception, arguing that Judas hadn't "lost" his salvation because he had never had it, by design. Which I don't like at all.

^Yeah, this is the part I've always thought about. Angels don't have free will; I know the whole idea of Satan and Hell tends to be built around stuff that's technically not in the Bible, but God has no reason to respect the freedom of angels if it truly doesn't serve His interests.

Edited by RedSavant on May 16th 2019 at 1:51:11 PM

Don't forget that Judas not only betrayed the son of God to his death, he also committed suicide. Suicide is kind of a big no-no in the Christian faith. Back in those days suicide was considered self-murder.

Edited by M84 on May 17th 2019 at 1:57:43 AM

Yeah, that's brought up on this site, which I'm not sure of the credentials of (TL;DR for the relevant bit of the link, the suicide didn't count against him because he was already damned from the start). I can't really tell if it's a reading from a more progressive point of view, or not.