RWBY General Discussion

Look. I'm going to put this in bullets for you people because I will not be held responsible for my actions thereafter. The woman had death flags for days. Not only that, we have SEEN THEM WASTE VILLAINS BEFORE. Cough, Torchwick, cough, Neo, cough, Lionheart. So the way that scene panned out it seemed like, on top of a number of other disappointing, anti-climaxes from that volume, that Cinder could be dead. Because the alternative forces me to assume other things about the show's lore that I really shouldn't have to.

• Cinder starts mocking her opponent and summarily gets her ass kicked after showing off the full brunt of her maiden powers - she is both at her most deplorable and most visible, and unless the writing suddenly improves this is usually a good time to axe a villain as they've probably reached the end of their lifespan
• A major reveal - Raven is the Spring Maiden - just occurred, so we're not going to get any narrative wonder out of "omg Cinder survived"
• Her major weakness - her Grimm arm - just got revealed and taken advantage of - now we know Cinder isn't the unstoppable, Implacable Woman whom only Ruby can defeat
• She's already been grievously injured by the heroes prior, so seeing her injured further in a later storyline isn't going to do anything for her villain cred - in a story like this, once the bad guy has revealed their hand and powered up to full then they're probably boned
• She's already reconnected with Jaune so that he can vent his manpain over Pyrrha at her, and Cinder has expressed nothing but apathy towards him. She has no other direct conflict or connection to the heroes beyond being a part of the fall of Beacon - she can be taken off of the board without leaving any heroes' questions unanswered or robbing them of any emotional closure
• We got an explicit slow-mo shot when Raven knocked her off of the cliff - dramatic, slow, Disney Death sequence is a good indicator that the villain is staying down because why do the slow-mo at all?
  • Further, Rooster Teeth has a thing about making Cliff Depths actually stick - see The Meta and Felix from Red vs Blue

I also now have to assume:

• That Cinder thawed herself out after being electrocuted and tired from her previous battle, did so without making considerable noise, freed herself before she hit the bottom of the chasm, and was either too weak or too drained to propel herself back up to where Raven is - we've been given no indication that Cinder is the kind of person willing to make a tactical retreat at this point in the storyline - literally the entire reason she's in this mess is because of her bull-headed decision to strike at Team RWBY, something Watts even calls her out on.
  • I must also assume that she managed to sneak out of the Maiden Vault without alerting any of the arriving White Fang or citizens nearby - assuming she makes it back to Salem
• Or, I have to assume that Cinder hit the ground Pillar Men style and that Maidens have stupidly strong regenerative abilities, which certainly weren't established back when Amber was killed, or when Cinder had to go through physical rehab with the Mother of Evil between Volumes.

So at that time - without the benefit of going onto a forum and reading everyone else's thoughts on the matter and adapting my public addresses accordingly - it was quite simple to think she was dead and that we were moving onto the more interesting villains.

Because, as so many said back when Torchwick kicked the bucket, what did Cinder really have to offer as an antagonist anyway?

• She barely had any beef with the protagonists and she conveniently forgets that Ruby is even present in Volume 5
• Her weapons aren't particularly interesting and most of her fighting style from Volume 2 went out the window in Volume 5
• Her Semblance wasn't even worth a mention
• Her powers went from laser blasts with a bit of fire to being the Dark Avatar
• and we already know that Salem is the one behind everything, so Cinder's role as the Big Bad behind Torchwick is invalidated because she's just a pawn herself, and we've no indication that she feels any sort of internal conflict

So until they start Cinder down the Darth Vader route of redemption she only exists to be a hot, Hero Killer Hate Sink voiced by Jessica Nigri - and therefore, sending her off of a cliff seemed appropriate.

Death flags. For days.

Edited by Soble on Oct 3rd 2018 at 2:55:44 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Redemption? After all that shit that she's pulled?

Mileena Madness

I don't really remember any death flags for Cinder, to be honest.

But to me, the matter was simple: Cinder hasn't fulfilled her narrative role yet. She hasn't faced Ruby or interacted with her in any way. Killing her makes everything related to that moot. Felix had fullfilled his narrative purpose and arc, Torchwick had fullfilled his narrative purpose and never had an arc to begin with. Cinder fulfilled a part of her arc, but not the whole thing, and has yet to fulfill her narrative role. Killing her off now would make the wntire rest of her arc moot. So there was no way she could die, especially to Raven.

I think you mean Disney Villain Death. Disney Death implies that the character in question is revived shortly after their death,or was never dead to begin with, in other words the death is very short-term or nonexistant.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Oct 3rd 2018 at 3:11:12 AM

(3) Villains find redemption everywhere. ^note Merle Dixon (racist) shot the Governor's men to save his brother Daryl. Darth Vader (killed children) threw Palpatine down a shaft and got access to Jedi Heaven. Gollum (crazy murderous imp) tried to help Frodo and Sam, initially at least. Snape (murderer and abusive professor) killed Dumbledore but Harry named a son after him. Vegeta (alien warlord) is married to the smartest, richest woman in the world after killing most of her friends. Freaking Loki (self-explanatory) did some helpful things and he's off the hook for killing who knows how many people in New York, and Thor cried for him. Heck, Thanos (untold amounts of genocide) is probably going to be on a farm by the time Infinity War 2 comes out.

(2) Agree to disagree. The whole thing Cinder had was being the Woman Behind Torchwick, which she stopped being when Torchwick died and Salem came into the picture, and being Ruby and Jaune's nemesis - which the plot forgets about by having Cinder ignore the former and target the latter. Then we wrap up that conflict with Jaune not caring if she kills him, and Cinder killing a random person Weiss to mess with him.

I know that we're supposed to feel like Cinder is Ruby's opponent since they've fought in the second volume's opening, but the show isn't really owning up to that.

Torchwick was a better enemy for Ruby than Cinder has been so far:

• He's a Combat Pragmatist and can handle himself in a dust-up while it's made pretty clear that until recently Ruby didn't know how to fight without Crescent Rose
• "I'll cheat, steal, and do anything I need to do to survive, heroes r stupid" Torchwick - "I always wanted to be like the heroes I read about in books and make the world a better place" - Ruby
• Torchwick feared or loathed most of his allies, Ruby cherishes hers
• Torchwick was a career criminal. Ruby is training to become a career superhero

Torchwick might not have had an arc but he should have and I will fight you to the courtroom on that.

(1) That.

Edited by Soble on Oct 3rd 2018 at 3:43:25 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

The chief reason why Cinder shouldn't be assumed dead is because, like stated above, her narrative role is yet to be fully realized.

While RT doesn't shy from abrupt villain/hero death, Cinder has yet to run her course. She's the closest thing both Ruby and Jaune (main hero and the most important supporting character) have for an arch-enemy. To have her die so suddenly, without their imput, by a secondary villain who fucks off shortly afterwards just wouldn't do. Unlike Salem, who's so far just a nebulous threat to the heroes, Cinder is very clear, very villainous and has hurt the heroes deeply in person.

Torchwick had run entirely on his popularity and Neo was just his goon. Functionally, their role in the plot was never going to be bigger than "local villains" who quickly get removed out of the picture once stakes grow. Leonheart was just meant to be disposable - for shame, since a lot of his existence invites interesting questions that will now go by unanswered. In comparison, Cinder, while not a straight-up number two to Salem, is under the big bad's personal care and supervision. You don't just dispose of such a villain in a random ditch. That's like having some no-name schmuck blow up the Death Star while Luke flounders about.

So, perhaps, Cinder did die - but Salem wouldn't stand for that and simply revived her via nefarious means. It would also explain why the arm appears larger and more brutish than before - for all we know, she might have put more Grimm in Cinder, or the rejuvenation process just fucks you up, Dark Souls Undead-style.

As for redemption, however, I don't see it. Ruby's general approach to Cinder suggests that she wouldn't accept a sudden change of heart either.

grah

I completely and absolutely agree that Torchwick should have been Ruby's enemy instead of Cinder. Cinder should have been frozen on top of Beacon Tower alongside the dragon and never earned another mention. But ever since she survived that the show has given her and Ruby several moments where they make their mutual hatred clear (despite both suddenly forgetting that when the time actually came in Haven), so for that alone, I feel she won't die until this story thread comes to a close, even if she really should have.

Not really a fan of it.

• Salem stands haloed by the broken moon, screaming that there's a connection between Salem and the broken moon.
• Silhouette of a woman with a hand (looks like a left hand) that's clearly beastial. The obvious first choice is Cinder, but the cape suggests a costume change.
• Generic poses for Team RWBY.
• Grimm monster looking even more humaoid (facially, at least) than the Nuckelavee did. However, the Nuckelavee didn't make the volume poster, so I assume this Grimm will be more prominent than the Nuckelavee was.
• Qrow doesn't make the cover this time.
• Centre shot is reserved for Oscar, who looks upwards with idealism and hope, and Ozpin, whose bowed head and closed eyes suggest sadness and resignation. They're back to back which almost always symbolises conflict.

So, looks like Ozpin and Salem's past is probably going to become a thing in this volume. How much of a thing, we'll have to see. I'm still expecting the broken moon to be the key.

My guess is that the Grimm on the poster is the Manticore that Rooster Teeth advertised. The face does look like the concept art that Rooster Teeth released.

My theory:

• Ozpin broke it.
• The broken moon is connected to Salem's state and rage.
• My theory was born during the pilot episode. I've had it for a long time.
• I like the thought of Ozpin seeing his mistakes every time he looks at the sky.

The reasons why it didn't to me:

• Cinder can fly.
• The fight started when Raven broke out of the same ice trick.
• The purpose of the fall is to focus our attention on Cinder's maskless face.
• The next time we're allowed to see Cinder's maskless face, there will be a Grimm eye.
• The point of the defeat was Cinder's pride and sanity. What emerges from the pit will not be the same woman who fell into it.
• It's that old concept that not everyone survives the abyss, but occasionally the abyss sends something back... cue eerie music.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 3rd 2018 at 1:24:55 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

It would have been like The Last Jedi only Cinder is a subboss to Salem, not the main threat.

Mileena Madness

See, to me, nothing about the season finale sent up a death flag for Cinder. Quite the opposite, in fact. Cinder indicated that she's trying to Collect 'Em All with regards to the Maiden powers, and that creates intrigue. Cinder wants to absorb all the Maiden abilities in herself? Sweet. Obviously, she has to ultimately succeed in this endeavor 'cause you can't just introduce that and then never follow through on it.

Once a means of being powerful enters a story, the final credits DO NOT ROLL until someone's tapped it. Cinder can die once she's the One True Season Maiden and gotten to show off what that means. Not a moment before.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 3rd 2018 at 5:31:15 AM

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The more humanoid look Grimm looks like a feral vampire to me.

Besides, Cinder's relationship with Salem has not been fully explored. Salem displays clear favoritism towards Cinder for reasons yet to be revealed. She doesn't give a shit about anyone else but she coddles Cinder. Cinder is the window into Salem's characterization, which makes her extremely valuable as a character.

And, as noted, she hasn't yet had her big showdown with Ruby. Her enmity towards Ruby hasn't paid off. Not only that, but she's the only one on Team Salem shown to actually be affected by the Silver Eyes, so if she bites it, that whole subplot becomes worthless before it even gets explained. "Whoops! She's dead. Guess the mystery of the Silver Eyes doesn't f*cking matter anymore!"

As The Heavy, Cinder is pretty irreplaceable.

EDIT: I mean, it is true that we've seen her cut loose with one Maiden's power. But since we've already seen that her intent is to collect more, that doesn't mean anything. It's like taking down Imperfect Cell and going, "We saw the full extent of his power. There was nothing left he had to offer anyway."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 3rd 2018 at 5:33:49 AM

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Well, the fact the creators said that her powers are stipped could mean she can't get any more Maiden power.

Mileena Madness

Death isn't the only reason for such scenes. Characterisation uses them, too. In Cinder's case, it was her failing sanity and her inability to prioritise Salem's goals over her own.

The Aura information was potrayed as a 'weakness' not a 'major weakness'. It also wasn't easily taken advantage by Raven. It didn't give her any advantage over Cinder, it never contributed to Cinder's defeat.

Cinder's Grimm connection is only portrayed as a 'major weakness' where Ruby's silver eyes are concerned.

The Raven fight suggests Cinder hasn't achieved full power. Raven has been a Maiden for years, Cinder less than one. V4 emphasised Amber's lack of experience and Salem's demand for Cinder to intensively train. V5 emphasised Raven had spent years preparing for Salem.

Nevertheless, Cinder held her own against Raven, who needed help to defeat Cinder. If anything, the fight suggests Cinder will surpass Raven. Jaune and Ruby also show that Cinder will likely hold a grudge against Raven. Since Raven has death flags, Cinder is now a potential vehicle for that to happen.

It primarily allows us to focus on her face. As I said, I believe it's a set-up for a future moment when her maskless face reveals a Grimm eye.

I expect Cinder to be in too bad a state to immediately escape the abyss. We also don't know where the abyss leads to, given that it's in an Ozpin-designed chamber. The might be other routes out, there might be something down there that Cinder has to deal with.

For all we know, Salem might be able to 'portal' her out of there in some fashion. After all, Salem's subordinates appear to be capable of travelling great distances with apparent ease. Perhaps Raven isn't the only one with portal-esque abilities, especially given the fact her portal carries the same colours, shape and symbolism as both Salem's symbol and the way the parasite portalled out of Cinder's hand when she stole Amber's power.

The silver eyes are irrelevant given that the issue seems to be Cinder's reliance on the parasite Grimm to be a Maiden. It's the Grimm that makes her vulnerable, not the Maiden powers.

When Qrow mentioned her inexperience, Amber was singled out by implication as being different to most Maidens. Cinder may or may not classify by Amber's standards as 'inexperienced', but she does seem lacking by Raven's standards.

All we know is that the fight began with Raven breaking out of Maiden ice and it ended with Cinder being encased in Maiden ice.

She had no time. Jaune immediately went after her, Emerald immediately blocked Ruby, Cinder only toyed with Jaune long enough to identify him. When Ruby's eyes activated, she was immediately knocked unconscious by Emerald. Cinder targets Weiss because she'd already seen his concern earlier on. That sorted, Cinder can't deal with Ruby because Ruby is unconscious. As soon as Ozpin's presence is revealed, she rushes to obtain the Relic before Ozpin can gain the advantage.

Jaune's rage, Ruby's unconsciousness and Ozpin's presence changed everything for her. Raven's secret then did the rest.

Cinder has never been the Big Bad. She's The Heavy.

I do expect Salem to punish Cinder in some way. Given that Salem controls the Grimm, she probably has the power to destroy Cinder's connection to the Fall Maiden's power whenever she wants. Remember, the Fairy Godmother did warn that if Cinderella disobeyed her, everyone would see her magic disappear at midnight, transforming her back to rags. Salem acts as Cinder's evil fairy godmother, so she should have the ability to take away Cinder's power when Cinder hits her version of 'midnight'.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 3rd 2018 at 1:24:38 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

My various fanfics.

What Ruby did to send the mook flying is something we never see because she did it off-screen.

Also, throwing a punch against a mook is not going to be the same thing as proper fighting.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

It is ridiculous that they've decided that Ruby is completely worthless without Crescent Rose and is about as strong as a wet sponge, despite the fact that she swings around an absolute monstrosity of a weapon with ease. Which only makes sense if Crescent Rose weighed literally nothing.

My various fanfics.

Even though it should have.

Sorry. Couldn't help it. Anyway, I still don't appreciate the idea that Cinder didn't have time for Ruby. She changed the entire plan for the specific purpose of getting to fight Ruby, and is known to be sadistic, vengeful person, and is in possession of a pretty major hatred of the girl. That she decided to toy with some random kid she never met before, ignored Ruby when making the decision of hurting someone for the sake of torturing Jaune, walked past an unconscious Ruby, and then took a moment where she had every tactical advantage as a chance to follow her mission, all of this without ever even glancing at or acknowledging Ruby, feels massively contrived and out of character for me.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Oct 3rd 2018 at 9:33:57 AM

She's shown tackle kicking another (or whatever) through the window. That probably requires some martial prowess.

And she later bitch kicks a Grimm to death right after Torchwick dies. This doesn't really jive with her supposed inability to fight without CR.

Edited by Karxrida on Oct 3rd 2018 at 6:27:24 AM

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

In regards to target Cinder picked if I am not mistaken he did seem focused on Weiss who was doing worse then everyone else at the time and she was the first person to get her aura broken making her the easier target especially if she probably wanted to torture Ruby when the person she hates was awake to feel it rather than knocked.

While I am not surprised she fought Jaune since he picked the fight with her and she enjoys breaking people from the looks of things. I am surprised she didn't taunt Ruby while was fighting Jaune.

"When I offered to make Norea my third back-up girlfriend she just glared at me and started throwing things at me.." Renee Costa

Perhaps Cinder doesn't want to fight Ruby who can beat her with her eyes. Despite her sanity slipping, even she isn't that dumb.

Mileena Madness

And yet she moves the whole plan just to force a confrontation with Ruby.

But she didn't stop to fight her. She went after the relic, and only then did she get obsessed with more power.

Mileena Madness

It seems like Cinder fully intended on fighting Ruby until some nobody interfered, then priorities shifted.

I also imagine her plan as she was going down to get the relic would involve her returning with more Maiden Powers and the relic and then dealing with Ruby. Probably while tying her friends to those bombs while doing the evil villain laugh.