Infamous: Second Son

I think the issue was that his copy power stretched his gameplay and potenial playstyles far too thin.

Delsin does seem to be the most universally disliked part of SS from what I've been reading the last few days. (been talking about inFAMOUS on every forum i frequent) Everyone accuses him of being try hard cool. He's not fucking Kratos. He is anti-Kratos.

I mean, what's wrong with being a gigantic dork? He's trying too hard to be cool from an in-universe perspective, making clearly intentionally lame jokes and wearing a damned beanie. It's endearing in how hard he wants to be a badass but isn't. Sort of reminds me of Dante but actually good because the devs don't buy into the hype.

My biggest problem with Delsin is he sounds like Troy Baker doing his mediocrest Troy Baker impression. I suspect if they got somebody else for his voice Delsin wouldn't have this perception of being edgy or whatever. Because of the voice and hat and overall personality, he makes me think of Snow from FFXIII. Except, even though I like Snow, that's a bad thing because it just makes me think of a more interesting character.

Yeah the issue with copy powers is that you end up with 4 stretched out lacking abilities.

As said since the previous game was all about lighting, it focused on developing the lighting to the max. There tons of upgrades, progression rewards after every big level, just feels like they really put in the effort of giving lighting a lot of distinct abilities.

Its like if lighting got the full budget while for copy power the 4 powers each only end up getting 25% of the budget though in this case stone only got 10 or 5%. Having multiple powers only ended up thin and limiting.

Did you just diss Dante for Delsin? Not cool (shakes head disapprovingly).

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 14th 2019 at 1:43:19 AM

I've never liked Dante. Everybody told me he was the coolest and I tried to get through DMC 3 but his personality was insufferable. He has to have the worst dialogue of all time.

And if you disapprove of that, wait to here about how I prefer Nu Dante. I liked Dm C a fair bit, actually.

That is hilarious.

https://youtu.be/tMCM73aLNC4?t=331

OH NO! A BOMB! This looks like a job for Cole!

Or not.

I have always loved this evil choice so much just because all it demands is you stand there lazily and watch and then the cop's last second "I'll do it myself!" Yeah, good luck with that one.

Oh wait, they're all dead. Oops.

Delsin is dislikable because he:

• Doesn't have a character arc. He's the same guy he was at the beginning of the game.
• He's replacing a much beloved character.
• Everything ends well with him versus Cole's Bittersweet Ending events unless you go Bad Delsin.
• He's Jumped at the Call in a world where Conduit stories are universally tragic.

I don't hate Delsin, I'm actually annoyed we're not playing Second Son 2 right now.

However, he's a character that isn't someone who really jumps out as a great replacement either.

He's not Arno but he's not Ezio either.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:33:11 AM

Al good points but your mentioning of how odd it is he Jumps at the Call really sticks out to me.

My inFAMOUS mood was rekindled by a talk elsewhere like I said and the first thing to come up was the morality system because somebody had praised IF's Karma mechanic. I said how realistic it was in IF 1 that somebody would go evil because...well, everybody fucking hates you for no reason. People talk a lot about integrity and doing the right thing no matter what but in a world where people unfairly treat you like dirt, why would anyone feel motivated to do something for their abusers? That's a sad view I know but very realistic and believable.

And, if anything ,Delsin has it worse than Cole in IF 1. They have instituted full-on racism both in the law and in the culture. I can understand him wanting to do what he can for his Tribe but everybody else? Ehhhhh.

Second Son 2 isn't a thing because Ghost of Tsushima is a thing.

The Good Karma is also weird.

You get Good Karma by fighting drug dealers and fighting crime.

Except it's drug dealers in Seattle one of the most pro-drug cities in America.

Huh did not know that.

I mean, drugs are one thing but drug lords are another. I think most people who support drug legalization do it so as not to throw struggling minorities or the like in prison for no goddam reason, as opposed to helping cocaine barons who have hooker hostages.

That was one of the last things I saw in the SS LP I'm watching. Well, it's only in the Good Karma side but that's what we're talking about.

Somebody did point out an interesting thing though in one of the Evil videos, You know those Suspects you can do whatever you want with in the cages? You have no way of knowing anything about them. You just get Good Karma for freeing them and Evil Karma for killing them. You could be freeing dozens of Literally Hitlers for all you know.

I'm kinda slowing down in interest in SS, though. I could have watched all the vids by now but Delsin, while not terrible, is just really bland. Where I'm at he is just about to meet the Video Conduit or whatever and I'm like...I don't really care about any of this right now. I Haven't seen Betty in several videos and that isn't helping.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 14th 2019 at 8:49:33 AM

The thing I noticed is while Second Son is fun, it’s a fairly generic X-Men story. The first two games on the other hand were a bit more creative with the fact that Conduits were off-brand mutants, even if 2 borrows liberally from God Loves, Man Kills. I think Cole made it work better since he had a support network in play while Delsin is just a guy trying too hard to be cool.

Now that I think about it, the first two games had a certain atmosphere, tone, etc. that SS lacks.

Like SS lacks I's grit or something like that. Prolly didn't help that Seattle was really clean and lack some varied locations.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:26:53 AM

SS is definitely Lighter and Softer.

If it was done in the original game files then this would be canon:

• The government is murdering citizens and framing Delsin for it.
• They're also experimenting on the public.
• The criminals are regularly committing atrocities to rule the citizens.
• The blockade is making food scarce and other resources.
• Some of the Conduits generally are homicidal psychopaths.
• One of the Conduits you recruit would be a monster but he's "your" monster.
• Fetch would probably BE a drug addict not avenging her brother and she uses her powers to rob dealers for their supply.

I don't know where to begin with this.

I don't mind Delsin, Snow, Kratos, or Nu Dante.

To my understanding Good Delsin ends up "connecting with his tribe" more and finally grasping personal responsibility instead of just being a rebel.

Evil Delsin becomes power-hungry and cold-blooded, slaughtering the people he originally set out to save.

Either route sees Delsin being affected by Reggie despite the friction between them earlier on.

Heck, I'd even dare to say that Delsin has a stronger character arc than Cole does in the second game.

Edited by Soble on Jan 14th 2019 at 10:15:46 AM

Eh Good Cole starts the game trying to just keep his head down and debating the reasonable, "Do I want to keep food for me, my girlfriend, and my buddy or do I want to share it with everyone?"

A not too evil (well it's pretty damn selfish but understandably selfish) choice and then either goes, "I am the defedner of this city" or "I want the power of a god."

I actually don't mind Delsin in the slightest.

I think Delsin's main issue was two things. He didn't really have many big losses until later on and his power copying shtick.

I personally can see the appeal with Delsin. Someone whom tries to be optimistic and keep his cool to the best of his ability in the face of a lot of nasty things. I think the problem is the game doesn't sell this aspect of him very well as the DU Ps are the main enemy with only random drug dealers as the other enemies, they don't feel as big persay as Cole's enemies.

I think what the game could of done better to sell that is have other gangs in Seattle that were are controlled by other conduits, like the first game and a bit like the second. This would also give much more credence to the fear of conduits in Seattle and Augustine wouldn't need much of an excuse to bust into the city if conduit drug lords and gangs were running around.

Delsin also could of suffered more losses I think if you want to make his story more tragic and change his character a bit more, say Augustine killed off Betty (I like her but it could of happened) or some of the tribes members. This would definitely of hurt him and Reggie getting murdered by her would of sent him over the edge. Make the final choice to be to kill Augustine or subdue her. Another thing is that Reggie does not call you out if you are being doing a bad playthrough. I think he could of made some impact on Delsin even more if he did.

Delsin's other main problem is the power copying on paper sounds really cool but in practice most people just used either smoke or neon. Video was pretty situational combat wise and you get concrete literally right as you beat the final boss so unless your a completitionist its pretty much useless.

Its kind of sad as the powers, beyond Concrete, are pretty cool. Another issue I have is comparably to Infamous 2 the upgrades for the powers in Second Son sucked. They didn't really change up the powers at all. I think it would of been interesting if you could modify how the powers manifested with different projectiles or such or even combined them in some way.

They could of executed Delsin's powers way better. Maybe if Second Son 2 is ever made he'll be much more flexible.

Edited by Wispy on Jan 14th 2019 at 11:23:15 AM

Reading this thread and getting up to after you get Video powers has made me appreciate what people meant when they said Delsin was trying too hard to be cool. Like I noted earlier, I thought they meant tryhard like Kratos GRRR. I AM BADASS WATCH ME FUCK EVERYONE OVER GRRRRR.

And that's not Delsin. He's a total dork.

But that's all he is. As somebody said earlier, he has no arc, no development. Optimism is fine but eventually you have to be phased by something, have something just totally erode your composure, have some character growth. Apart from when he first gets his powers, Delsin goes through the game in both the Good and Evil Route with the exact same cheery personality. If anything, he has it worse than Cole in IF 1 but even as he says "I have powers and you all don't and you also keep fucking with me so fuck you" he sounds and acts the exact same way as Good Delsin. The only difference is he kills people now while maintaining his glib personality.

Basically I'd just like to see him take things more seriously. He lives in a totally shit world but he greets everything with a smile and that is just too...boring.

And Reggie suggesting "just walk away and leave the Tribe with concrete daggers in them" was like...WTF. That was a moment of drama with Delsin where we could have seen more of his vulnerable side, seen something besides Eternally Happy Smiley Jokey Guy. But, nope. He gets everything back in five seconds.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 15th 2019 at 10:34:53 AM

I think the problem is the format of the story. In the LP they mention loving Betty and I figured Betty would be an important character throughout. But unless the L Pers cut it out, you have no interaction with her after the Space Needle. Your overarching goal is to help the Tribe but you don't really talk about that or interact with them after the first...what, hour?

And then you have a couple missions with Fetch and she also drops off the radar. Then a couple missions with Eugene. Only Reggie is consistently present in some form and, unsurprisingly, he seems to be a fan favorite even among people who dislike the game. He also has the most clear and evident arc as he overcomes the racism that has been instilled in him by society and recognizes his brother and the others as people.

As for the other IF games and their depiction of Good vs. Evil, you got more Good and Evil Side Missions than I've seen in this LP. Also In IF 1 when your girlfriend dies it's totally different between you being Good or Evil. She mentions how ashamed she is of you if you are Evil. I bring this up as an especially poignant difference as I just saw Reggie die. In both good and evil he says the same things. He's proud of you and he loves you.

Then again, if I remember right, Cole narrates a ton of stuff in IF 1, including Trish's death. Trish has a voice-actress but her final words are told to you via Cole saying waht she said. Which is kinda...shit now I think back to it. Eh.

I will say Reggie's death and Delsin's rampage of revenge is great. Really dig the music in taht boss fight against Augustine.

Burn! Burn the witch!

But yes, I agree about Delsin. It's funny, because he's written like an immature 19-year-old but is 24. Being that age myself, it becomes a bit clearer what they were going for with his character — namely, that the devs wanting you to think "OMG! Delsin is such a rebellious badass!" couldn't be farther from the truth. He's a dork, he tries to be cool but most of the time doesn't succeed. In most of the arguments with Reggie, his older brother is in the right and it's obvious (incidentally, having a big brother I'm close to is another thing that made me relate to Delsin). Also, this turned into my "characters in Infamous" post, so bear with me.

I'd say that compared to the first game, the characters in SS are both a big advantage and a bit of a loss. This is because of something that affects almost everything about both games (with 2 once again being a middle ground) — how cartoony it is. From the physics to the visuals to the dialogue, 1 is a hell of a lot more cartoony than SS (which mind you, isn't the same as not taking itself seriously). This has its ups and downs, for example, SS looks a hell of a lot better graphically, but has a much less distinctive visual identity and so ends up somewhat bland. Which is best exemplified in the enemy designs — 1 has ghoulish hooded gangbangers, hobo mobsters dressed in trash bags and scraps of junk, and gas-masked cult members for enemies, whereas 2 has bog-standard quasi-futuristic police special forces with a bit of concrete for ornamentation. There's just not much memorable about the enemies, or locales for that matter.

However, one aspect in which SS's tone gives it the clear advantage is in the characters themselves. 1 takes a lot of cues from superhero comic books, which is fitting given the mission statement for the game, but unfortunately it also means that characters often talk like caricatures. The writing leaves to be desired at times — several missions and one of the pivotal emotional climaxes fall flat (Kessler's Sadistic Choice) because you're never given much of a reason to care about Trish, for instance (as opposed to Zeke, whose betrayal is well foreshadowed and actually feels impactful). By contrast, I was surprised at how snappy the writing was in the first half hour of Second Son alone — Delsin, Reggie and Augustine all feel like real people, which does a lot to endear you to the characters (and hate, in Augustine's case). The banter in 1 is very wooden and artificial by comparison, with 2 once again striking a middle ground, Kuo's diction springing to mind in particular. As far as the death of a loved one goes, Reggie's is immensely more impactful than Trish's, and taking the evil route and strangling Henry in front of his daughter feels very natural for evil Delsin.

On that note, let's talk a bit about the main characters again. Replaying 1, I was surprised at how much I liked Cole. I'd filed him away in memory as a bog-standard "gruff white male protagonist" (mind you, I last played 1 the better part of a decade ago), and while that's not precisely wrong, it isn't a detriment either. His personality isn't super complex, but he definitely has one, as a no-nonsense kind of guy who just wants to get out of this mess at the start, and has some very natural and realistic responses to all the craziness around him with some ever-present but not overstated snark. As such, both the Good and Evil routes feel like natural progressions of his character for the most part — whether you focus on his basic pragmatism and later on desire for revenge, or his better nature. On the whole, Cole never really blows you away or anything, but he's a competently written protagonist that makes you emphasize with him and has enough of a personality to be likeable without being gimmicky or irritating.

Now, Delsin. He's a bit of a divisive character, as talked about upthread, but as I said, I do like him quite a bit as a protagonist. What I find interesting about him is that, as he has a more defined personality, he has more road to travel with regards to being believable in both the good and evil routes but he succeeds at that quite well. The tagline of the game is "Enjoy your powers", and while the gameplay proper doesn't always really lend itself to exploring that fantasy, Delsin's character is. He behaves pretty much exactly like you'd expect a kid (yeah, he's a grown-ass man, but he looks and acts like a teenager) who suddenly got superpowers to behave, in both the good and evil routes. The interactions with the other characters about the nature of their powers and what they should be used for are among the most engaging writing in the game (less so with Eugene, who's a bit of a wasted character), but the SS overall suffers from having relatively few Karma decisions in the story proper — which is the same thing as saying relatively few points to differentiate between the good and evil paths. The few important karma-dependent beats that we do get are great (most notably the Fetch, Hank and Augustine decisions), but the moment-to-moment gameplay karma choices aren't implemented very well. Unlike evil Cole, evil Delsin simply does not seem the type to assault sign spinners or street musicians just because they annoyed him.

And this post is also running away from me, so 2/?.

I think the most distinctive thing about Good vs. Evil in SS is the reaction of Seattle to Augustine's bullshit at the end. If you are Good, you have the citizens saying Augustine is full of shit and Delsin saved my brother and so-on. And if you are Evil this obviously nobody supports you and Delsin is like FUCK YOU ALL.

This is actaully pretty reminiscent of earlier IF games. A sort of consistent thesis in the series is this idea people are essentially good, rational and empirical. Sure they might hate Cole because of the Voice of Survival's lies (and it turns out the poor guy was being forced to say all this and is eventually murdered. A tragic little subplot that is easy to miss there) but if Cole does good deeds then everyone will do a 180 and love him. Same for Delsin and, I assume, Conduits as a whole. Groups of people will change their mind when presented with evidence. It's perhaps a bit simplistic and even idealistic but I like it. I don't need hardcore cynicism in everything.

Anyway perhaps that's why i really liked that segment in SS. It's very much a staple of the philosophy of inFAMOUS.

i still have a bit more to go before I am done with Second Son but you mentioned the diverse antagonists in the form of the gangs. i agree! However, don't forget the gang leaders. I can't stress enough how much I love Sasha and Kessler and Alden is great, too. SS has only Augustine who isn't even in the game that much. You do hear a fair bit about her I suppose but essentially the entire game rests on her shoulders. And given the fact she wasn't a very convincing villain to many people I talk o, that really hurts the overall story. I personally felt her introduction was a bit too...uh, hackneyed? "Some people you love here. Be a shame if anything bad happened to them." She's also perpetually smug which cn come off as being a Smug Snake more than a real good villain.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 16th 2019 at 4:33:34 AM

First Light kind of did this better than Second Son via giving a specific drug lord a character while exploring Fetch more.

Shane manages to both be realistic and somehow more of an asshole than Augustine which says a lot.

I would say First Light is a good middle ground between the original 2 games and Second Son with having some cartoony elements with the lumens and lumen races for example with Second Son's better character writing. That DLC made me really like Fetch, even more than I liked her in Second Son.

Edited by Wispy on Jan 16th 2019 at 5:03:15 AM

I can see where you're coming from, but like I said, Second Son is so much less cartoony than 1 and 2 that I don't think a villain like Kessler or Alden would've worked. I was actually fairly impressed with the motion capture and voice acting for Augustine when she was introduced, pulled off the egomaniac government official vibe very well. I think that's what kept her for being a one-dimensional hateable Smug Snake for me, just her dialogue and delivery had her as someone who got angry and frustrated and emotional at you, rather than an ineffable overlord who always had the upper hand. Generally the voice work in SS is very good and fits well with the more realistic tone of the game.

Relatedly, can't help but feel that the use of Seattle as opposed to a fictionalized equivalent like Empire City and New Marais play against the game's best interests. They're very much limited in the landmarks and vistas they can offer (despite some attempts like Augustine's tower, but keeping that one in view for the entire second half yet remaining out of reach till the final mission was a bad move in my eyes), and I get the feeling they also wanted to limit the amount of destruction and misfortune that they got to heap upon the city. Empire City is a hellhole, in a way I don't think they might've wanted to try had it been New York City. But it also gives the whole game a good framing, because you get an immediate goal (escape), a sense of urgency, context for the various gangs and loss of infrastructure, design space for a ton of different side missions (something that was sorely lacking from SS) and a power vacuum for Cole to rise into.

You mentioned the part at the end where the citizens back up Augustine's accusations of you or deny them depending on your karma, and that was a nice moment, but in 1 and 2 you get those all the time in gameplay proper. It's not a huge deal, but having the context of a city that was left to rot by the government and taken over by gangs, then Cole being the saviour or new iron-fisted warlord of the city has a lot more impact. In SS's Seattle, there just doesn't seem to be too much of a concern for the average citizen — sure, there's a military lockdown, but all it seems to amount to is a few checkpoints and patrols and it doesn't affect the overwhelming majority in any way. Which makes Delsin seem kinda extraneous in a way Cole wasn't.

The LP I'm watching actually mentioned your last point a few times. If the city is under martial law, why are there even protesters out there for Delsin to potentially fuck with? Why are there all these drug deals going on? It seems like they wanted BOTH the "tyrannical government agency is in control" and "this is a normal city playground for you to have fun in." The result is an inconsistent mess.