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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#11401: Aug 1st 2018 at 4:10:29 PM

That depends, are you disputing the consensus of the neuroscience community regarding (the nonexistence of) free will?

Because it's basically irrefutable, and arguably has been since the seminal cognitive experiments of Libet et al. in the 1980s. As rich and complex as human behavior is, it is ultimately a deterministic phenomena dictated by the fundamental physical laws that govern the universe, rather than by some mystical Cartesian ghost. In a very real sense, a person who commits a crime (or holds problematic or anti-social attitudes) is no more "responsible" for their actions than an hydrazine molecule is for decomposing exothermally in the presence of an iridium catalyst. Consequently, traditional notions of justice, morality, and punishment break down, necessitating a radically new approach to criminal justice and the legal system.

You would be incorrect to claim that it's a solid consensus or that it's regarded as irrefutable. I'm going to quote research directly instead of through a journalism filter.

For example, Paul Catley (Open University Law School, UK) published in the European Journal of Current Legal Issues (Vol. 22, No. 2 (2016)), the following:

    Quote inside the folder 
Greene and Cohen's celebrated essay looks, inter alia, at freewill and questions whether our conception that we make choices can survive advances in neuroscience.[38] From a hard determinist standpoint freewill is an illusion. All events are the results of prior causes operating according to the laws of nature.[39] Every event is causally determined - including human action. The idea of an uncaused causer has no place in this world view. For the law such a world view is potentially very challenging. Law and in particular the criminal law is built on the assumption that individuals normally have choice and that they are to be judged on the basis of the choices that they make. This is not a new phenomenon, in the mid eighteenth century Blackstone wrote:

'the concurrence of the will, when it has the choice either to do or to avoid the fact in question, being the only thing that renders human actions either praiseworthy or culpable. Indeed, to make a complete crime, there must be both a will and an act.'[40]

This idea of both a will and an act can be seen in the requirement for most crimes of both a physical act (actus reus) and a mental element (mens rea), but Blackstone's statement also importantly has a focus on choice. This belief in a capacity of the individual to make choices remains a central underpinning of the law. Two hundred years after Blackstone, Hart wrote: 'unless a man has the capacity and a fair opportunity or chance to adjust his behaviour to the law its penalties ought not to be applied to him.'[41] More recently the Law Commission for England and Wales have stated that: 'A person with no possibility of making any choice - whose action is in that sense "automatic" - does not have the capacity to control his or her actions.'[42] In the view of the Law Commission such a person should be entitled to a defence to any criminal charge.[43] If hard determinists are correct then nobody has choice. Benjamin Libet's experiment is often cited as evidence that our belief that we choose is an illusion.[44] In the experiment the participant has electroencephalogram (EEG) electrodes attached to her scalp. She sits in front of an oscilloscope timer and presses a button when she feels the urge to do so. She then records where the timer hands were when she first felt the urge to press the button. The experiment found that brain activity preceded the participant's perception as to when she first felt the desire to press the button. On average the brain activity took place 350 milliseconds (ms) before the participant reported starting to feel the urge to press the button. Whilst the test has been replicated, the interpretation of its findings remain controversial: with many objecting to an interpretation that the test demonstrates that free will is an illusion.[45] Proponents of a belief that we have choice in whether or not to act can point to the fact that according to Libet's findings there is a further delay (on average 150 ms) between the reported timing of the first urge to press the button and the actual pressing of the button.[46] This allows, it is argued, for an opportunity to veto the action. Therefore, whilst Libet's findings may (or may not) challenge a belief in free will they do create the possibility of creating a belief in 'free won't' (i.e. an ability to veto action). If we return to the definitions of Blackstone, Hart and the Law Commission this opportunity to control actions, preserved by this interpretation of Libet's experiment, is enough to retain a belief that we normally have choice and the corollary that in such circumstances it is normally[47] justifiable to hold us responsible for those choices.

For the present, it would appear that the neuroscience of free will won't force the law to reassess its underlying approach to imposing responsibility. Scientists may on occasion say that there is no such thing as free will[48] but this does not mean that law must abandon its assumption that acts are normally voluntary acts. The scientific debate continues with some taking compatiblist[49] and some taking incompatabilist[50] standpoints. At some point a consensus may emerge, but for the moment that does not seem imminent. If a consensus supporting hard determinism does emerge it may challenge mankind's innate feeling that we do make decisions. Our current beliefs may not be evidenced by scientific proof, indeed they date back to centuries when a belief in the mind and the soul as separate entities from the brain and the physical body was not challenged by emerging scientific understanding. We may now reject the idea of the ghost in the machine or the homunculus, but we still are very wedded to a view of the world which feels in tune with how we 'experience' our lives. Such belief systems may be termed 'folk psychology', but that does not alter their importance both for society and for the law. Findings from the Human Brain Project and the BRAIN Initiative or from subsequent investigations into brain processes may make belief in such folk psychology untenable and if that happens the implications not just for the law but for society may be enormous, but for the moment it is hard to see law abandoning its underlying belief in human autonomy, individual responsibility and free will.

His point is that there's, technically speaking, nothing new about the involvement in 'free will' in court cases, so some of the possible implications of neurolaw will not have any kind of significant legal changes in the foreseeable future for anyone to escape a crime via the 'no free will to choose' option. His point is also that, if such a day comes where there is a scientific and legal consensus for making that kind of argument in a court of law, there's a good chance the law will take a 'free won't' approach instead of a 'free will' approach (i.e., if there's no choice to feel the impulse, the legal argument will be about the whether or not there's a choice to refuse to act upon the impulse).

And that brings us right back to the idea of people taking personal responsibility for practising self-restraint. In other words, when you make the following point:

So yes, it's not Turner's "fault" he's holds various sexist attitudes, so rather than punishing him in accordance with an archaic and pseudo-scientific notion of justice, we instead implement appropriate sanctions against him to minimize the harm caused by said attitudes.

The responsibility (according to law) will likely remain on him to control his impulse and practice self-restraint, unless there's a genuinely neurological condition which can be medically treated (the paper discusses such a scenario). So, there's not likely to be any cop-out as far as women's justice is concerned, although there might be some significance regarding the man's criminal record (depending on the neurological circumstances) once the medical condition has been successfully treated (assuming it can be).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 1st 2018 at 12:26:56 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#11402: Aug 2nd 2018 at 12:21:52 PM

[up] This is really a conversation that’s veered off topic and is for another thread, because it’s far broader than the subset of criminal justice issues that intersect with women’s issues. I’m going to reply to this in the general crimes thread rather than continuing the derail here.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 2nd 2018 at 3:28:21 PM

Imca (Veteran)
#11403: Aug 2nd 2018 at 4:02:21 PM

Does it even mater if free will exists or not? Part of the point is to keep people?

So what if he is as responsible as a hydrozine molocule is for decaying? I am not even going to debate that moraly, protecting others is still a concern.

Just like you wouldn't leave plutonium in the open, it's not responsible but it being free harms other.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#11404: Aug 2nd 2018 at 6:50:48 PM

[up] This isn’t really the right thread for the kind of high-level justice system ethics I ended up derailing the discussion from. I’d like to apologize for that, and for any offense I may have caused in doing so; I have a bad habit sometimes of finding something I want to discuss and crowbarring it into whatever thread I happen to be viewing.

I am going to open a thread oriented towards more high level discussion of criminal justice systems since there doesn’t seem to be one, we can discuss this further there, though I should note my remarks were never in disagreement with the notion that people such as the individual in question should be incarcerated, just with the typically given reason why they should be treated as such.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 2nd 2018 at 9:56:37 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#11405: Aug 8th 2018 at 8:45:15 AM

I wasn't sure if this was the right place to post this, but I saw this and I wanted to talk about it somewhere.

Riot Games, the developer of League of Legends, has an incredibly sexist and toxic workplace culture where women are constantly belittled and rape, groping and other horrible behaviors happen at parties.

I wanted to talk about this because I've played Lo L for years. I've spent an embarrassing amount of money on it (though I haven't paid for anything in years), it was basically the default game for me and a lot of my online friends for a long time.

Part of the reason I stopped playing was because my anxiety and stress levels have gone up, but more importantly, it was because the community often made it impossible to enjoy playing the game. Not only is it often just generally hostile, it is one of the most sexist, dudebro-y environments around. And not only did I see that reflected back in the attitudes of pro players, it's now revealed that this is Riot's attitude as well. And this is a problem that they themselves created, because they were committed to the idea of hiring hardcore fans of the game. In many ways that does make sense, but they failed to account for how that would create an elitist and unpleasant environment because they didn't filter any of those players for toxic attitudes. The twitter thread mentions that one of the things they use to vet people is how long they play the game per day, as if any reasonable or well-adjusted person is going to be playing Lo L for upwards of 10 hours a day on a regular basis, and that this was the classic gatekeeping attitude of excluding women for not being "hardcore" enough.

I actually considered applying to work at Riot as an artist at multiple points in my life. While it isn't surprising to hear about this given what I've come to expect from gaming companies, I can't help but feel disappointed that the company I once held in reasonably high regard years back has been exposed. It's not really a broken pedestal anymore, but if I had seen this like 5 years ago I would have been real sad.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11406: Aug 8th 2018 at 8:53:22 AM

Riot Games is what happens when "hardcore" gamers run a company. It's an echo chamber of toxic misogynistic immature bullshit. This is what happens when the edgiest most assholish gamers gain actual power.

Disgusted, but not surprised
HottoKenai Since: Aug, 2016
#11407: Aug 8th 2018 at 9:31:43 AM

[up][up] I've actually posted about it in the Sexism thread. You can go there to discuss it if you want.
Warning: It's even worse once you learn of the sexual assault accusations.
On a little brighter side, I've found this supportive thread on Twitter from a female employee, with a survival guide of a sort (which... said a lot, really).

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#11408: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:42:41 AM

A new study looks at something that factors into the pay gap, imaginatively calling it the "punishment gap" specifically in the financial industry. Basically, businesses with fewer female managersnote  are much more likely to fire, demote, fine, and/or blacklist, women compared to men who make the same or similar mistakes. The same goes for minorities, too.

    Full article text 
Emphasis mine.
Women experience more severe repercussions for misconduct in the financial advisory industry than their male counterparts, research published on the Bank of England’s staff blog shows.

Women are 20 per cent more likely to lose their jobs – and 30 per cent less likely to find new employment – following an incident of misconduct compared to men, guest writers Mark Egan, Gregor Matvos and Amit Seru said in a blog post Wednesday. The gap is even wider in firms with few female managers.

“The financial advisory industry is willing to give male advisers a second chance, while female advisers are cast from the industry for similar or less severe missteps,” the researchers said. “The effects of the gender punishment gap are costly, long-lasting, and may ultimately contribute to the glass ceiling faced by women in finance.”

The academics followed the careers of 1.2 million workers in the US financial advisory industry from 2005 to 2015 and found that the disparity persists throughout one’s career. Offences include customer disputes resulting in a settlement, internal company discipline, and regulatory and criminal offences.

Men are twice as likely to be repeat offenders and engage in misconduct that is 20 per cent more costly, the researchers said, meaning that the so-called punishment gap can’t be explained by women’s behaviour being more expensive for firms. Instead, the composition of companies’ management and executives seems to play a role.

At firms with no gender diversity at the executive or ownership level, female advisers are 42 per cent more likely to leave their jobs following misconduct than their male colleagues. Firms with more equal representation apply more balanced disciplinary measures.

Ethnic minority men experience a similar disparity in their treatment, the researchers said, and it’s again narrower at firms with more multiculturalism in management and executive positions. That suggests the imbalances are driven by “ingroup favouritism,” the researchers said.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11409: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:26:54 PM

[up]While none of that is surprising, it's good that we've got some more evidence that this is happening.

I now wonder exactly how much hardship my own relative had to put up with working in Wall Street before deciding to work at UBS. She gets the twofer also since she's full Han Chinese like me.

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:26:32 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#11410: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:30:00 PM

I always wonder why some (usually men) are so hell bent on "debunking" the wage gap. I understand that some don't like to face the reality that they benefit from other's disenfranchisement, but the immense anger when it is brought up is staggering.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11411: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:33:16 PM

[up]It's textbook overreaction to the mere mention of systemic privilege. Kind of like how some white people freak out at having white privilege pointed out to them.

A lot of people just really, really don't want to acknowledge that they've benefited from an unfair advantage over others their whole lives. They think they're being subjected to real life Easy-Mode Mockery.

There's also the fact that we as a whole have made sexism and racism awful without properly defining what actually constitutes sexism and racism. It's how we get people excusing a lot of genuinely sexist and racist behaviors as something more innocuous, and anyone who dares to call them out are mocked as "SJ Ws".

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:36:57 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Murataku Fits in Heavy's pocket! from Straya Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Fits in Heavy's pocket!
#11412: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:57:20 PM

It might also be due to some people misunderstanding what the term actually means. Sometimes people hear it as "a man and a woman working the exact same job at the exact same place with the exact same title will always be paid a different hourly wage". Hell, I've seen some people protesting it present it that way themselves.

Of course, that isn't really what it means and all. But if that's what people think is being said, then they're gonna argue against it.

Edited by Murataku on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:56:50 PM

The last thing you hear before an unstoppable juggernaut bisects you with a minigun.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#11413: Sep 5th 2018 at 11:14:33 PM

I was thinking that this specific issue may warrant a dedicated thread (perhaps a general thread about California matters, seeing as Hollywood is an integral part of that state), but I want to see some input on both the story and whether to have a dedicated topic about the state before going and we've discussed such topics here in the past: Asia Argento, facing sheriff's investigation, now says teenage actor sexually attacked her.

The summary is that then-17 year old actor Jimmy Bennett has accused actress Asia Argento of having a sexual relationsip/sexual assault with him when he was that young. She has now fired back by him of sexually assaulting her instesd. This whole affair sounds little creepy and weaselly.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, Bitch! from Eldritch Nightmareland Since: Jul, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, Bitch!
#11414: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:35:34 AM

Wow, Victim Blaming much there, Asia?

This is all the more worse because Asia was one of the main spearheads for the #Me Too! movment, only to turn out to be a hypocrite because of what she did to Jimmy Bennet.

She probably wasn't doing so on purpose, but she alone is probably gonna damage the #Me Too! movement's credibility with this whole affair, whether it makes sense to or not.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:52:44 AM

Watch Symphogear
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#11415: Sep 6th 2018 at 11:25:31 PM

I don't think this will hurt #MeToo all that much, TBH.

There is also apparently hush money (or extortion? Depending on who you listen to) involved that Argento paid to Bennett.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#11416: Sep 8th 2018 at 3:21:48 PM

Young actor accusing Asia Argento of sex abuse as a minor will work with detectives, his lawyer says. So it's going to go to court, I believe.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#11417: Oct 14th 2018 at 11:04:30 AM

Pardon the doublepost, but Wikipedia is having their own sexism controversy [[https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/outlook/2018/10/08/why-nobel-winner-donna-strickland-didnt-have-wikipedia-page/ Why Nobel winner Donna Strickland didn’t have a Wikipedia page]]. Now as far as I can tell that (Nobel winner not having article before the win) is actually common, but my only exposure to such topics is via Wikipedia internals.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#11418: Oct 14th 2018 at 11:11:32 AM

"Of course, that isn't really what it means and all. But if that's what people think is being said, then they're gonna argue against it. "

In this case is because it related in economic, a field were a lot of people want to sound smart about it.

Also I will guess is because a "big issue", is hard to prove for example of cultural demaning of black people as one thing but if you can prove you are denying people for voting is another beast enterely.

I

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#11419: Oct 18th 2018 at 8:32:20 AM

At least one editorial writer thinks that feminists, and the #Me Too! movement in general, need to confront Hillary Clinton about why she defended Bill when he was credibly accused of sexist behavior.

    Full article text 
Emphasis mine.
For all the powerful abusers exposed and censured over the past 12 months, one of the biggest accomplishments of the #Me Too! movement has been the reintroduction and reframing of past misconduct. Bill Clinton has been the subject of the most prominent of these retroactive reckonings, with feminists and progressives interrogating the Democratic Party’s continued embrace of a man who has been credibly accused of sexual harassment and assault, and also, while president, treated an intern like a disposable genital wipe after engaging her in an extramarital romantic and sexual affair.

It hasn’t been easy to find a productive way into Bill Clinton Reckoning 2.0, given his lack of official political power and the unwillingness of old-school Democrats to explicitly condemn him. Further complicating the endeavor is Hillary Clinton, a fraught symbol of feminism’s accomplishments and failures and a painful reminder of the overt sexism Americans voted for in 2016. To exhume Hillary’s role in Bill’s alleged decades-long exploitation of women—as the #Me Too! movement must if it intends to fully confront the forces that supported a sleazeball and alleged rapist for decades—seems a nearly impossible task in a political climate that rewards unabashed liars with Supreme Court seats and proud misogynists with rising approval ratings.

In social movements, however, the hardest tasks are often the most essential. The 2016 election season found Michelle Goldberg arguing in Slate that although Juanita Broaddrick’s rape allegations against Bill Clinton were credible, her claims that Hillary Clinton had silenced and threatened her were not. But Goldberg, like most feminists at that time, still ignored what Hillary’s forever-endorsement of Bill revealed about her character and commitment to women’s rights: The stakes were too high to direct fire at the wife of an alleged sexual abuser when another alleged sexual abuser was her presidential opponent. The act of questioning Hillary’s decision to stand by and defend Bill would’ve evoked the humiliating slights conservatives have subjected her to for the past two decades: the “Hillary Sucks But Not Like Monica” paraphernalia, the portrayals of the former secretary of state as a ball-buster too frigid or dykey to properly satisfy a male partner. It’s difficult to imagine a good-faith assessment of Hillary Clinton’s role in enabling Bill Clinton’s abuse when bad-faith attacks still dominate the conversation, as they did when Trump invited Bill’s accusers to a presidential debate. The line between holding a woman to task for the company she keeps, and blaming her for her husband’s actions, was too fine to discern during an election cycle that had already blinded us with rage.

Today, with the #Me Too! movement maturing and both Clintons speaking out about Bill’s affair with Lewinsky, that line is coming into focus. In an interview with CBS correspondent Tony Dokoupil, Hillary said that affair did not constitute an abuse of power because Lewinsky, who was in her early 20s at the time, was “an adult.” “But let me ask you this,” she added. “Where’s the investigation of the current [president], against whom numerous allegations have been made, and which he dismisses, denies, and ridicules?” Hillary’s attempt to deflect criticism echoed Bill’s response to similar questions in June, when he said recent reassessments of his actions have come from progressives who are merely “frustrated that they’ve got all these serious allegations against the current occupant of the Oval Office and his voters don’t seem to care.”

The problem with the Clintons’ whataboutism circa 2018 is that, unlike the 2016 presidential election, this isn’t a Clinton vs. Trump contest. Both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump can be too amoral for public office, and there’s more than enough bottled-up anger in various women’s movements to target both a problematic old fave and an imminent threat to democracy. Trump’s colossal shortcomings as a leader and repulsiveness as a human being were enough to spare Bill two years ago. In 2018, it’s become clear that a go-along-to-get-along mentality will never keep sexual abusers out of top positions in government. With Trump in the White House and Brett Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court, feminists have far less to lose.

Now that probable 2020 presidential contender Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand has said Bill Clinton should have resigned after his affair with Lewinsky, it’s looking like the mainstream Democratic Party—to say nothing of its burgeoning left wing—may finally be getting around to exiling Bill from its inner sanctum. And yet, any attempt to parse Hillary Clinton’s role in Bill’s evasion of punishment for his offenses inevitably devolves into a vortex of contradictions and co-existing truths. Hillary exhibited atrocious moral, political, and intellectual judgment by staying with Bill after every revelation of his alleged and admitted sexual misconduct.

But also: It would have been unthinkable for the wife of a governor or president to leave her husband while he was in office, and then go on to build a public-facing career in a man’s world. But also: By standing by Bill, Hillary did a grave disservice to Lewinsky, Broaddrick, Paula Jones, and by association, all women hoping for allies as they fought to keep sexual harassers and rapists out of the workplace. But also: How could anyone expect a moderate feminist to disavow a man she loved, who had made a fair bit of political progress for women, when so many other feminists, Gloria Steinem famously among them, did not? But also: The fact that one of the world’s most visible feminists has defended one of the world’s most visible accused abusers for 20 years and counting has undoubtedly delayed an already overdue reckoning with the abuses of men in power. But also: Hillary, too, has suffered for her husband’s transgressions; to impose additional consequences on her—even rhetorical ones—while Bill evades any meaningful accountability only reinforces the gendered double standards women in politics must already surmount.

In the Trump era, we’ve landed on a word to describe the silent, smiling acquiescence of women close to the president. We say they are complicit—willing instruments of both the president’s anti-woman policy agenda and the broader male-supremacist ideology he promotes. For all the harm they caused poor women and families of color, Bill Clinton’s policies did not approach Trumpian levels of racism and punitive sexism. But on a personal level, Hillary Clinton performed much the same role in the Clinton administration as Melania and Ivanka Trump do today. It feels deeply unfeminist to ask Hillary to revisit her husband’s sexual misdeeds and answer for her role in mitigating their impact on his status in public life. But if feminists intend to complete a full audit of Bill Clinton’s place in the history of men getting away with serial exploitation, we must do it anyway.

The article does kind of raise some good points. But I also can't help but look at it as an attempt by the GOP to rile up their base with a "But Hillary!" gambit two weeks before midterms. But also: If we put off making Bill get a thorough reckoning for his slimy behavior, we are, in some small fashion, still supporting the same behavior writ larger by the Trump administration. But also: if this becomes the focus of the next few weeks, it risks blunting the #Blue Wave we're all hoping for, leaving the GOP in power to abuse women far more.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#11420: Apr 3rd 2019 at 3:41:13 AM

English judge says man having sex with wife is 'fundamental human right'

Basically, a judge is being asked to impose a court order on a man from having sex with his wife of 20 years because she may no longer be able to give informed consent due to her deteriorating mental state.

This is the part that sparked a controversy:

The judge said the man might be put in a situation where he could face prison if he breached an order, or an undertaking, not to have sex with his wife. He also suggested that such an order would be difficult to police.

“I cannot think of any more obviously fundamental human right than the right of a man to have sex with his wife – and the right of the state to monitor that,” he said. “I think he is entitled to have it properly argued.”

This pissed off some people, including a Labour MP

Part of that comment was seized on by the Labour MP for Bristol West, Thangam Debbonaire, who tweeted: “This legitimises misogyny and woman-hatred. A judge stating ‘I cannot think of any more obviously fundamental human right than the right of a man to have sex with his wife’. No man in the UK has such a legal right to insist on sex. No consent = rape.”

Just because you're married doesn't give you the right to demand sex from your spouse whenever you want. Marital rape is a thing.

Edited by M84 on Apr 3rd 2019 at 6:43:51 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#11421: Apr 4th 2019 at 12:55:56 AM

The right of the state to monitor whether a woman is giving her husband "enough" sex is more fundamental than a woman's self-determination.

That's disgusting.

It's been fun.
Bur Chaotic Neutral from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Not war
#11422: Apr 4th 2019 at 5:00:09 AM

But not surprising.

i. hear. a. sound.
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#11423: Apr 4th 2019 at 7:23:13 AM

Rape.

Culture.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Imca (Veteran)
#11424: Apr 4th 2019 at 1:21:37 PM

The worst part about that is not being surprised at all since its how all the judges back home ruled, hell even when one could give consent, and clearly didn't "Its a wife's duty to have sex with her husband when he wants it, therefor its not rape" was an actual ruling.

Its the kind of thing that just... strikes me as non-news news because of just how common that is.

TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#11425: Apr 4th 2019 at 1:22:38 PM

The newsworthy thing about the story is how un-newsworthy it is?

Like shootings. HEADLINE: Justice System continues, as it always has, to believe that rape is a marital right. You, the American People, have still failed to do anything about that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 4th 2019 at 2:24:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

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