Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I am referring to weak but skilled males who more or less use their opponents weight against them or female strikers who play similar to Axel.

Oh. For the former, I think Eliot from Dead or Alive is close match to what you mean. For the latter, a few fighting game female characters like Chun-Li or Kasumi from the aforementioned Dead or Alive fit but it depends on which entry in the franchise. Blaze herself is a strong all-rounder in Streets of Rage 2.

First, sorry for my bad english. I hope, it works out. Hi, i just signed up here to have some discussion about this, since it might affect me in the future.

I am definitely left wing, not centrist, i don`t think women are weaker than me (because i know a lot of women who are both physically stronger than me but also a lot more Independent), economically i am especially left wing, i don`t accuse any women of ***ing their way into the gaming Industry (sorry for writing it that way, don`t know how to write it more elegant) and don't think Disney, Marvel Comics, EA have to cave to my demands.

I don`t believe there is a Marxist agenda. I also know how big the financial problems of minorities often are and that there is NOT a Level playing field in most countries.

I think refugees should get support from the west, because for example some european countries export weapons to other countries, and companies destroyed and robbed other countries of resources etc... So I think you can call me left wing.

I came to the conclusion that the economic system restricts big companies so much, that they cannot create something I can be excited about.

But on the other site, I am writing and drawing in my freetime a lot and I use that Hobby as my, you could call it that way eventually, "no rules safespace".

Obviously, I am not gonna talk in Detail about what Kind of fiction I write and draw in my freetime on this website, but it is definitely full of stuff i don`t want to happen in real life, and it is also Kind of glorified (for example the Relations between the characters are definitely… uneven, even when it Comes to intimate issues).

To be completely honest, yes I enjoy doing this. I enjoy having power about fictional characters. Though I don`t post anything of my stuff on the Internet Right now, even though I plan to at some Point. Everything of it is noncommercial, and I would Always post it with Content warnings, because I think people should be able to avoid this stuff.

If someone asked me to remove that stuff despite it having Content warnings, i guess I would only do it if the Website owner forced me to.

I am interested to hear, since many users on this forum seem to be more left leaning, how you think about what I am saying? I don`t think I will ever be willing to stop writing and drawing my "power fantasies" or alter the Content, but I am still interested in Hearing some other perspectives on this.

I guess some users here view my opinions as dangerous to societys most vulnerable people, but maybe that is not true.

Sadly most discussion in the Internet tends to get very aggressive, but I think I have a more uncommon opinion on all of this, so maybe I can contribute something of value here.

Edited by sketchnaut on Sep 2nd 2018 at 7:24:38 AM

Well, I don't know what you are writing about, but if you already know you write about something problematic or lame or whatever and yet you still want to write about it, the least you can do is own up and take responsibility of what you just write. No one force you to write that, after all. It is your own choice to do so.

If you write some lame, self-indulgent, escapist, power fantasy, don't be mad when someone call you out for it. The same logic also applies if you write bigoted works, just own up to it and don't be mad when someone call you out for it. If you think that you can't handle the heat, don't write it or at least don't publish it. Simple, right?

Depends on what getting called out for it means. If someone calls it shitty, that is okay.I mean critique is Always allowed, if you find something problematic you are allowed to say that. If a site owner doesnt want the Content, he can delete it.

Though i doubt every single Website on the Internet will refuse to host my stuff, at least everything I write takes place in an already very fictive Setting. If someone would call me a nazi, i would say that that is not true. I would call that unfair, because i think Action should be taken against actual nazis.

It just depends on the consequences, if someone would doxx me- no that is not okay. Even if someone writes , i dont know, rapist fantasies(just an example), you shouldnt doxx them. Especially if it is already behind Content warnings. I mean, you can try to get the site owner to delete it.

I would Always state that the work does NOT reflect my opinion. If someone would ask me: "do you think women should be treated like this in real life?!" I would say :"absolutely not, please don`t do that."

Maybe my Content warning would be like "Glorification of Things like sexual violence, this does not reflect my views About the real world".

Because it doesn`t.

I think that is what seperates me from people who write terrible stuff but then also state that they believe that it reflects the real world in a positive way.

Edited by sketchnaut on Sep 2nd 2018 at 8:09:56 AM

Can't speak for anyone else, but as far as I'm concerned you're not doing anything wrong.

I mean, one could argue that as Long as problematic content exists or communities that create problematic Content, even if they share that content only in their own bubble or on pages with Content warnings, there is still a danger that prevents media as a whole from getting changed in a positive way. Imagine People who dont watch for example the new star wars film because it defies there expectations, and then, instead of harassing other People, just build new communities where they can create the stuff they want to see without bothering anyone.

I think that would be okay, but one could argue that then these People don`t have to reflect their way of thinking and that that could be dangerous.

I mean, that is Kind of true. I for example, invest waaaay less Money into media than i did ever before, just because i often have no fun with the more socially Aware Comics. I don`t want them to go or to fail, i dont view their creators as enemys, i don`t harrass, for example, the creators of SAGA on the Internet even though i don`t have fun reading their stuff. I dont view Critics of media as whiny snowflakes, i dont whine About "sjws" on the Internet etc.

But in the end i find Always (often free) alternatives and manage to avoid the stories that defy my expectations. Since many users here really care About represantation in media, isn't this mindset of mine something you fear or find very bad? I mean, don`t know what you could do About it (i hope i dont Sound provocative, that is not my Goal), but isn't there always an Option to flee from Progress if one wants to, so to speak?

Edited by sketchnaut on Sep 2nd 2018 at 11:16:47 AM

If you're actually looking for advice on writing stuff, we have a place for that here in the Writer's Block.

This is not the place for this.

Can't speak for other people, but as someone that has someone that has written characters that include a complete narcissist that treats people like disposable tools to the point that despite how much of a terrible person he is he has only been called out once. I would only judge the writing and not you as a person based on said writing.

Depends. Do your works have said characters be treated as right the way a blatant power fantasy would?

If a writer consistently writes material that treats female and minority characters like shit by an asshole protagonist who never gets punished for it and is instead glorified for it...

It's entirely fair to judge people for what they say and do and write.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 1:26:57 AM

I don`t want to discuss writing, I want do discuss the legitimacy of judging someone by what they write. Or rather, what Kind of judgement it should be. And what consequences such writer should get.

For example: Is a Sexist writer just a Sexist? Is a writer who constatly glorifies sexual violence just a Sexist? Or could that writer be a potential threat? or should they be banned from conventions etc., i mean, you could argue that they are dangerous.

Because on one site I definitely hold progressive values. On the other site most stories I write contain this:

At the same time I write arguably shitty things, I also believe this:

So, I think it is okay to Judge People by their writings, even though the judgement might be unfair. But there is always room for reconsidering opinions, Maybe they Change other time.

But I think their is a certain Level of judgment that could be dangerous: If you, for example, think, glorifiying violence in fiction makes me want to do it in real life, that would make me a criminal.

And that is just not true. Also I don`t think I treat women like shit in real life.

I may have shitty desires, but I think that is the Beauty of writing and drawing.

It is just so cathartic. It is like Boxing: Instead of killing each other, they fight with a ruleset and, in the best cases, with respect for each other.

I write that stuff, *because* I dislike real (sexual) violence. Wars and rape are for fiction, not something that should happen in real life (even though it does).

So the final Question is:

""Are writer who constantly treat their female Chars like shit, dont have many minority characters, glorify their abusive Protagonist in their novels etc. just sexist, possibly racist People?

Or are they potential threats? Are they nazis? Reactonaries? But what if they don`t vote conservatively, Maybe they even actively support things like black lives matter or womens or lgbt Rights?""

Are they a fraud then? Or are they simply ambivalent?? What should happen to them? I mean if we say "you are what you write", I would be a powerhungry rapist who wants to conquer the world or something like that. And to be honest, I would find it both offensive and dangerous if someone does not only think that About me, but tries to seperate me from Society, constantly calls me a rapist in public etc.. I don`t have any interest in intimacy and would never even look at someone if he or she doesnt want it. So i am not a rapist.

Edited by sketchnaut on Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:09:53 AM

You seem to be asking if there's any way you can write power fantasies with some really twisted material in them and show them to other people without being judged for it. The answer is "no". People will be judged for the things they do and say and write. That's how the world works.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:15:53 PM

You may not be judged based on the idea that your work is how you think the world should be, but you should and will be judged based on your desicion to put said work out into the world knowing the cultural impact it will have via promoting the ideas that are shown positively in it.

You can write a story that makes Nazis look cool and not be a Nazi, but you’re still someone who thinks that the world benefits from having another story that makes Nazis look cool.

@M84

So you think it would be okay to call me a rapist for writing Twisted shit? You think it would be okay to call me a criminal? It is okay to Judge People, but if you criminalize them without them having done a crime, i think you are treating them unfairly. Remember, i speak About Writers who use Content warnings and actively and openly distance themselves from reactonary politics.

Would you, M84, try to Prevent People who constantly write very Twisted stuff, even thoguh they use Content warnings, distance themselves from reactonary politics etc, from going on cons, public places ect., even though they dont even present their stuff there? I mean, not People who have a Panel there, i just mean they visit the cons at as normal Visitors? Would you try to contact their employees, their families idk, i mean, if we say "you are what you write(or what you write very often About), I am an abuser. And I think abuse should be treated as a crime, and I don`t think I am a criminal since I never abused anyone.

I agree. I mean, I said I think writing or reading dark fiction can be cathartic, so that makes me someone who thinks the world Benefits from having another Story About Twisted shit (though i never glorified nazis in my stories, but the "heroes" do some stuff i would call warcrimes in the real world, inside the stories, the heroes often have a noble cause, in the real world I would call them warcriminals).

Knock it off. That isn't what M84 was saying there. Do you think it's wrong to judge people for what they say, do, or write? Look, as I have said before, if you want to write problematic shit, you just have to suck it up and own up to it. In other words, if you don't want to be called whatever, it's your responsibility to clear things up with your readers. Don't shove it up to other people. Just like you, if you have the freedom to write whatever, they also have the freedom to say whatever. Freedom of expression isn't freedom from consequences.

No one can read mind, so people can only judge others through their actions. Are you saying we should just believe someone is what they claim they are just like that? This isn't about criminalizing thing. This is just people calling someone unsavory, a-hole, or whatever based on their actions.

If you don't want to be called whatever or deal with all those crap, you either step up and clean all the problematic stuff from your works or step out of the way and don't write or at least don't publish it. Once again, no one is preventing you from writing about whatever. By the same logic, no one, including you, can prevent others from saying whatever about your works. If you don't like what they say, you just have to roll with the punches.

A good writer is not just someone who can write good. They also have to be able to deal with criticism, publicize their works, deal with other people's opinion about their works, know the market (i.e. what is popular right now), balancing their own desires with what their readers want, and so on.

Edited by SteamKnight on Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:36:59 PM

This, essentially.

I think I am not that far away from your opinion. I would just say what I think, and if People dont believe me, or try to stalk me in real life (something, that you seem to think i should just tolerate), I would try to Prevent them from ruining my life, but on the other site their can call me what ever they want. Even if it`s something that is obviously not true.

I wouldn`t be mad at the criticism itself, though I would advise People who hate my stories to stop reading them, since I plan to use Content warnings.

Though I promised to myself, that I will publish whatever I want as Long as I find a platform that is okay with it. I don`t Need much Money, also I live in a social Democracy, so if People try to ruin me financially, I will at least stay alive. This is THAT important for me, I also will Always tell nazis or abusers that they are stupid, especially if they start cheering when I post stuff (though I hope they will never do, maybe i am just catastrophizing).

I guess you think this makes me a Person that is unwilling to learn (though i am not sure, I take it back if my asumption is not true), though the fact that I use Content warnings and try to distance myself from questionable people is already a selfaknowledgement that my stuff shouldn`t be just out there in the public for everyone to see. I am already admitting that my fictional writing doesnt exist in a vacuum and that culture can effect people.

edit: wanted to state that I am Talking About noncommercial work. A noncommercial writer doesn`t have to think about what Trends exist, doesn`t have to think about how to publish stuff, doesn`t Need to make Money with his work. He doesn`t even have to have a target demographic.

I think capitalism is not only ruining the physical world, but all those writings and fictional works that could have been personal and original, but instead are just chasing after market Trends. For example, I won`t watch the new Shazam and aquaman movies, even though there is a high Chance both of them could be fun for me.

I will never trust big Entertainment companies like Disney or warner etc. again, only small creators get my Money.

If a book is available at a Major book shop or is a triple a game, chances are it is not worth for me buying and consuming it.

Market rules are shit rules, if they weren`t that pervasive, we would already have a lot more afrofuturism, female and lgbtq representation.

Edited by sketchnaut on Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:00:48 AM

You're literally the only one who brought up doxxing and stalking. No one else has even mentioned it.

The problem is that you seem to think content warnings and token "The views in the work do not reflect my own!" make you immune to criticism. If your content still, say, supports pedophilia (purely hypothetical), you can try to justify your way out of it with those two as much as you want, but on the end of the day you're still putting out a fictional work that helps justify the mentality of pedophiles in the real world and thus (even if unwittingly) contributing to strengthening that movement.

You brought up representation in your last post. Representation goes both ways: just as positive representations of minorities is something we want, positive representations of people like (let's say) rapists, pedophiles, nazis, e.t.c are not something we want.

I just think it is a terrible idea to assume the kind of person someone is based on what kind of fiction they write.

If a person is really terrible there tends will be real world examples of that rather than making assumptions based on what a person writes in a fictional universe.

Except what a person writes and makes public IS real world action in and of itself.

I don't treat that as the same thing unless your implying anyone that writes characters or settings that have terrible values are secretly terrible people.

Because if your are I would really like to hear you explain that logic in full detail.

Easy. If you write work that has such characters AND glorifies them on a regular basis...well...yeah.

It is one thing to write stories with evil people in them. It is another to write stories where their actions are glorified as part of a power fantasy. One that you decided to make public.

Even if you yourself would never do such things, the fact remains, you put out a story that sends the message that such things are awesome. And that can be a problem, as Gaon explained.

Edited by M84 on Sep 4th 2018 at 12:26:14 AM

Nobody said writing terrible people means you're a terrible person, or that a writer's work is 100% reflective of his views. But if a writer's work posits a support towards (let's say) pedophilia, it's possible he's not an active pedophile, but even if he is some sort of children's rights champion in real life, his work is still supporting real life pedophiles and that's obviously a horrible thing to do.

Edited by Gaon on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:24:33 AM

What qualfies as glorifies the actions. Because that isn't exactly a clear answer.

Would that include making them not an idiot for the sake of proving a point or is that just people saying how cool they are?

Because a handful of characters or a setting agreeing with a sentient that is wrong doesn't mean the writer supports that. It just means those particular group or that particular world agrees with those values. Just as the real world had supported questionable things in the past.

I am talking about works where the protagonist does horrible things like rape and enslavement of others while the narrative goes out of its way to justify it. Something that happens way too often in power fantasies.