MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It's simply judging people based on their group identity. And depending on the group, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some groups are genuinely dangerous. Rather than needing special protection, people need to be protected from them.
Nazis are one such group.
Disgusted, but not surprised
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah there’s a reason political beliefs aren’t a protected characteristic, some political beliefs don’t need to be protected, they need to be eliminated.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
The other reason being that political beliefs can be changed usually with little effort. Skin colour, gender, ethnicity however defined or sexual orientation can't.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
To be even more specific as to make sure there is no confusion, if said identity objectively means something between genocider or subjugator, then it is a fool's errand to make them a "protected class". It isn't like other blanket classifications like criminals where it doesn't instantly equal "dangerous element".
Don't catch you slippin' now.
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
×5 WE don't define shunning nazis as bigotry, and it's shamefully disingenuous of you to attempt to wring that conclusion out of our words. You know perfectly well that white supremacists exist to some degree at every level in government and will bend the law every direction to accommodate the abusers who try to redefine the terms of the law to continue the persecution of minorities. You know perfectly well they have already tried and are continuing to refine their technique to define the shunning of bigots as bigotry. I have constantly faced people twisting legislation protecting LGBT rights and women's reproductive rights as a violation of religious rights. As a gay man and a naturalized citizen whose citizenship is now no longer guaranteed due to the push to legalize rescinding naturalized citizenship, the issue of bigotry is very personal. Don't try to explain how my enemies' weapons can't be used to hurt me.
Edited by blkwhtrbbt on Oct 16th 2018 at 3:36:31 AM
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Oppressors cry oppression all the time. Indeed, it has long been a favored tactic of the most deplorable elements of society to use the Rubber v. Glue defense.
"I'm not racist! YOU'RE racist! You're judging me unfairly for being white!"
"I'm not sexist! YOU'RE sexist! You're judging me unfairly for being a man!"
"You're not a victim! I'M the real victim, because you accused me of rape!"
"I didn't collude with Russia! HILLARY colluded with Russia!"
Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 16th 2018 at 9:41:41 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Oh, bother.
If that reminds you of the bullying little shits in your youth...well it should. These people tend to have a similar level of emotional maturity.
Disgusted, but not surprised
You can see this in a lot of the accusations the right makes about past historical regimes/organizations that sucked.
"The nazis were left-wing, they had SOCIALIST right in the name!!!"
"The KKK was a left-wing organization backed by the democrats!!! THEY'RE the party of white supremacy, not us!!"
A lot of the time I can't tell if they genuinely believe these things or they know that they're lying.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:49:41 AM
I'm reminded of a Twitter post I saw when I got home the day of that counter-protest in DC that complained about "Liberal Nazis". Yeah.
Unreasonably Quirky
Well, see, unless you're a firm believer in the "power plus prejudice" model (which I personally think is bunk), it's reasonable to say that you can indeed be racist against any race and sexist against either gender.
Like, this
person is sexist against men. Absurdly so. And to deny that would be foolish.
My favourite part is when some one say "The nazis were left-wing, they had SOCIALIST right in the name" they always leave out the National part of the National Socialist German Workers.
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do legally about a person's personal hangups. You cannot legislate away individual prejudices. You know what you CAN do legally? Fight systemic sexism. And "misandry" is not systemic, except for cases where it stems from the same patriarchal system that creates systemic misogyny. You know, the requirement that men be physically strong, emotionally stunted, and socially domineering? That comes from the idea that women have to be the opposite.
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
A procrastination in of itself
So the absolute vast majority of cases?
Shit I’m not awere of any examples of misadry that don’t come from the misandrist buying into some level of established gender norms.
Edited by Silasw on Oct 17th 2018 at 1:40:14 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
It's a bird.
This is the first response I got on this topic:
How else am I supposed to interpret this?
Nazis are one such group.
And here's another post along the same lines. To be fair, I think it's clear that we're using the word "bigotry" differently. The definitions I've seen of it include "obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices" and "having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs", always with the implication that it's inherently irrational and unjust. I'd argue that most people use the word with those connotations in mind.
Legitimate, reasonable criticism or opposition to genuinely dangerous people is not bigotry, and even if it was it still wouldn't even come close to being a hate crime. Hate crime, as Euodiachloris has already pointed out, is a description of the motives behind an already existing serious crime, not some new category that you can shove whatever you want into.
Laws being abused is always a valid concern, but when you put it right alongside the legitimization of concepts like "justified bigotry" without seeing any issues, it becomes a lot harder to take seriously.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I remembered the South Park episode where it mocked the Double Standard of Female Statuory Rape on males (Misaimed Fandom aside).
How many stories about criticizing it exist? I remember Drag mentioned Oyasumi Punpun, but that's all.
Watch me destroying my country
Private Pratice did the too: there was one episode were a obese kid reveal he was abused by one of is parent and the doctor who is a HUGE papa wolf end losing control and beating the dad...only to reveal it was her mother, who treat him as little precious kid(in fact, he got fat to be unatractive to her abuser).
Gillette’s inspiring new toxic masculinity ad asks: “Is this the best a man can get?”
“It’s been going on far too long,” the narrator continues. “We can’t laugh it off.”
A series of disturbing images play out while a literal formation of men standing in front of grills deadpan, “Boys will be boys,” until the narrator declares, “Something finally changed and there will be no going back.”
But rather than focusing exclusively on a negative, shaming note like so many other attempts at moving beyond toxic masculinity, the Gillette ad smartly transitions into framing the #Me Too! movement as a chance for men to be better while still being men. As the narrator says: “Because we believe in the best of men.”
Men are encouraged to self-police amongst themselves as images play out of men intervening to discourage other men from engaging in acts of harassment or blatant sexism: “To say the right thing, to act the right way. Some already are, in ways big and small. But some is not enough because the boys watching today will be the men of tomorrow.”
“This is an important conversation happening, and as a company that encourages men to be their best, we feel compelled to both address it and take action of our own,” Gillette brand director for North America Pankaj Bhalla said to the Wall Street Journal. “We are taking a realistic look at what’s happening today, and aiming to inspire change by acknowledging that the old saying ‘Boys Will Be Boys’ is not an excuse. We want to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and hope all the men we serve will come along on that journey to find our ‘best’ together.”
I'm ultra-wary of corporate "progressivism" as a means of selling more products, but that message is important in this day and age.
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Consider that social justice, like artists, must use what platform they have, including corporate sponsorship to promote their vision. Corporations may also have cultures within them that may lend them to deal honestly. I'mwilling to believe that this message might be honest
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
It is a good message at least. At the end of the day, men need a path forward.
I think of it as a sign that we're winning. It means there's more money in adopting the message than rejecting it.
Oh, bother.
And predictably MRA assholes are pitching a fit over this.
Gillette #MeToo ad on 'toxic masculinity' cuts deep with men's rights activists
They complained it's somehow "emasculating".
Disgusted, but not surprised
What, they tried to shave their pubic hair with Gilette razors and it went horribly wrong?
Nah, the problem is that those weak posers can't handle intense hardcore introspection.
Not to mention that making a statement like that would in no way count as a hate crime whatsoever.
Seriously, the way that some people here have willingly described their own opposition to people like fascists and misogynists as "bigotry" is just weird.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.