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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#20201: Aug 8th 2018 at 9:49:30 AM

I didn't say male and female shouldn't exist as categories. I said masculinity and femininity shouldn't exist. Basically (social) expectations about gender. A man cannot not be male and a women cannot not be female, regardless of how they behave. So if a man acts emotional, he isn't acting feminine, for example. Thus masculinity and femininity lose both their prescriptive as well as their descriptive use.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#20202: Aug 8th 2018 at 1:04:33 PM

Ah, okay. Thank you for clarifying.

AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#20203: Aug 8th 2018 at 1:23:18 PM

In another thread I had a rather long-ish discussion about distinguishing is from ought and how the latter should not be assumed to derive from the former.

Regarding this thread, our cultures easily make such leaps in numerous instances, here are two of them.
First instance is that the female of the species is the one able to get pregnant, while claiming all females ought to have maternity as destiny being a social and a cultural construct.
Second instance is that a male is statistically likelier to be physically taller, heavier, and more able to harm others than is a female, while claiming that in any heterosexual couple the male ought to be taller, heavier, and stronger than the female (and to be the one carrying the other) being a social and a cultural construct.

And we are expected to conform to such constructed expectations, which is why Masculine Girl, Feminine Boy is still a thing.

Edited by AlityrosThePhilosopher on Aug 10th 2018 at 6:49:26 PM

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#20204: Aug 8th 2018 at 1:54:28 PM

I don't think it's inherently wrong for masculinity or femininity to exist as categories. At the end of it, they're basically just cultures mostly based on the sexes. There's nothing that differs being part of a male or female based culture compared to being proud of being Swedish or Nigerian.

Now, exactly what those cultures entails is a bit different, and those are also floating definitions. They didn't mean the same a hundred years ago as they do now, nor do they mean the same where I live as in USA.

It's also important to note the difference mentioned above: Just because those distinctions exist, doesn't mean it's something everyone should adhere to. If that means they fade away, let them. If it doesn't, let them stay. But just saying, "these shouldn't exist" is a bit like saying it's nothing you're allowed to feel attached to.

Check out my fanfiction!
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Unreasonably Quirky
#20205: Aug 14th 2018 at 1:08:57 PM

A world-renowned feminist professor, Avital Ronnell, has just been suspended for sexually harassing a male student.

I'm pleased that more male students are willing to speak up nowadays, but I'm also appalled that so many of her colleagues are rushing to her defense and vilifying her accuser.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#20206: Aug 16th 2018 at 1:28:54 PM

So to balance out the article I posted to the Women's Issues thread, there's a research article about why a husband identifies as a breadwinner and what it means for his career and happiness.

    Full Article Text 
Emphasis mine. Italics are quotes in the original article.
Professional careers are notorious for demanding that people be single-mindedly devoted to work. It’s a demand that is often especially acute for men, who face rigid expectations that being a successful man requires having a successful career, and that “success” means power and money.

Men have traditionally satisfied these expectations by taking on the role of a work-devoted breadwinner, supported by a wife who does not work or who places his career first. But many heterosexual men today are married to women who pursue demanding careers of their own; moreover, many women expect that their husbands will support their careers and be more engaged in family life than previous generations of men have been.

The contradiction between the traditional image of the successful man and the reality of men’s lives creates a conundrum: How do men make sense of who they are in relation to their work, given their wives’ careers?

My research suggests that while some men fall back on the classic identity of a breadwinner, others respond to this tension by adopting the modern identity of what I call a “breadsharer.” Research on dual-career couples often focuses on how spouses balance their earnings or work hours, but my research showed that these groups of men differed most fundamentally in how they perceived the social status of their wives’ work — its worth and prestige in society. This perception in turn shaped how men described the financial value of their wives’ work. In other words, wages are far more than just dollars: As sociologist Viviana Zelizer has eloquently detailed, money is imbued with meaning, and this meaning shapes how we regard and treat that money. My research reveals how men’s evaluations of the prestige and social worth of their wives’ work shaped how they positioned their wives’ earnings — namely in ways that diminished or that elevated their financial value.

These different interpretations of the social status and financial value of their wives’ careers provided men with different ways of approaching their own careers. Breadsharers sought to remain professionally flexible to maximize their ability to respond to their wives’ career opportunities, and were hence uncommitted to any particular pathway and open to leaving their organization. Breadwinners, however, seeing no need to be flexible around their wife’s career, tended to be more committed to achieving success within their organization’s hierarchy.

I studied men working at a global strategy consulting firm. As in many such firms, the consultants were expected to be primarily devoted to their work: to be willing to travel far from family and work long days and weekends with very little notice. I interviewed 42 heterosexual married men at the firm. These men ranged in age from their mid-twenties to their early sixties and were employed at different levels of the firm’s hierarchy.

Men at this firm generally believed that to be successful, they had to be fully devoted to their employer and willing to prioritize their work over any work a wife did. As evidence of this equation, they pointed to senior men at the firm, who were almost all married to women who did not work outside the home. But this was not true of the men in my sample. When I began this research, I was told by an insider that most men at the firm had stay-at-home wives. In my sample of 42 married men, 23 of their wives worked full-time and 13 worked part-time. Just six of the 42 wives were not working at the time of the interview. There was thus a clear tension in the firm between common beliefs about men’s family lives and the actual characteristics of men’s families. Among the men I interviewed, this tension led to a fair amount of career angst — and marital conflict.

Some men (23 of them, 60% of the sample) conceived of themselves as breadsharers — husbands who valued enabling each partner to pursue their work and family goals. These men described their wives’ work in glowing terms, regarding it as high status and worthy of respect. They spoke at length of how important their wives’ work was, how well it was regarded by others, and of their wives’ many career accomplishments. For example, one man described his wife in the following way:

[Her] skills make her stand out in a sea of experts…. She’s an excellent public speaker. And one of her gifts is that she’s able to convey very complex concepts to lay audiences and expert audiences…. Whenever she speaks at any onference, she’s like, nine times out of ten, she’s the top-rated speaker on the evaluation forms.

These men used language that elevated the value of their wives’ earnings. One man described his wife as his “gravy train.” Another explained in detail why his wife’s earnings were more important than their dollar value might suggest: “The fact that she doesn’t work full-time is probably what makes us at odds. But otherwise, on a per-day wage, we probably make the same money…. We both do feel quite empowered at our work, because the other works.” Describing a difficult situation at work, he explained that his wife’s earnings had empowered him to stand up for himself because, “I knew, right, there was no need to [worry about being fired]. It’s not like we were going to go hungry or anything — you know, the mortgage will be paid.”

Valuing their wives’ work so highly, these men positioned themselves in sharing terms: placing importance on both partners being able to pursue their work and family-related desires, hopes, and dreams. They supported their wives’ work alongside — and sometimes ahead of — their own. One explained: “I want to make sure she continues to be in a professional situation where she can [succeed], and that, in turn, you know, puts pressure back on me to sort of say, “OK, wait. Our life is not going to be the one where I get to do whatever the [expletive] I want job-wise, just because my life is not the center.”

This support for their wives’ careers meant that men were uncertain about the direction of their own careers. The firm demanded an unwavering attention to work, which would lead to a pathway to partnership. But these men felt that their wives’ careers required that they themselves remain adaptable and open to changing jobs, cities, or countries. These men were thus not so committed to continuing along the pathway the firm expected of them.

They were aware that in this, their own expectations for themselves differed from the expectations they faced at the firm. One told me, “We’re an interesting couple in that I went to business school, I work as a consultant in the professional services space, in a world where in many ways many of the men in the consulting world, right, are the primary breadwinners in the family and I am not that.”

A smaller group of men (17 of them, 40% of the sample) positioned themselves in terms consistent with the traditional male breadwinner identity. These men accorded low social status to their wives’ work, which seemed to prime them to view this work as having little financial importance to the family. This happened even when wives seemed — to an external observer — to be quite financially successful.

One minimized his wife’s career achievements, saying, “She could have done much more than she has [in her field], but she chose a different path. What I call, you know — being a project manager in the home is the way I describe it….” His wife contributed one-third of the family’s income — about a six-figure salary.

Another framed his wife’s (considerable) wages in ways that seemed to disappear them: “I said to her, ‘If you take your job and net out all of the day care expenses and net out all of the extra tax that we have to pay because you work, we’d fundamentally be making the same amount of money between us.’” These men’s characterizations of their wives’ earnings as fundamentally unimportant, somewhat frivolous, and optional echo a longstanding cultural history of the value of women’s work being diminished through labels such as “pin money.”

Having diminished the status and financial value of their wives’ work, these men easily laid claim to the identity of a work-devoted breadwinner, which they viewed as essential to their potential career success. One man (whose wife was a full-time professional in a similar role and earned more than he did), put it this way: “Work-life balance is less of an option for the guy if he feels the need to be successful and provide for the family. And I guess that’s the situation that I’m in right now.”

These men, unlike the breadsharers, mostly intended to stay at the firm and make partner. And why wouldn’t they? They had made sense of their wives’ careers in ways that freed them to devote themselves to their work as their firm demanded. Yet while some seemed quite happy to be breadwinners, others felt trapped: Even though they claimed a breadwinner identity, it was not always a completely satisfying one.

Why should we care about how men identify themselves in relation to their wives’ careers? We often focus on how women’s work lives are shaped by their family lives, but the ways that men’s work lives are shaped by their family circumstances are too often ignored. This study showed that how men in professional careers defined themselves in relation to their work, as well as how they approached their careers, was very much shaped by how they interpreted the social status and financial value of their wives’ work.

The importance of status in men’s interpretations was somewhat unexpected; in our conversations about work, career, and couples, we often focus on earnings and work hours. This research shows that social status — worth, esteem, and respect — matters too for couples’ careers. No husband with a wife who was a doctor or lawyer minimized her career or discounted her earnings, no matter how much or little she worked or earned.

Finally, this work shows that money matters in couples’ careers, but not in the ways we think. Salaries are more than dollars and cents; they have a social meaning and that meaning is quite malleable.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#20207: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:07:41 AM

Men Are More Satisfied By ‘Bromances’ Than Their Romantic Relationships, Study Says

Young men get more emotional satisfaction out of “bromances”—close, heterosexual friendships with other males—than they do out of romantic relationships with women, according to a small new study published in Men and Masculinities.

Intimate male friendships have become more socially acceptable in recent years, say the study authors, and that’s largely a good thing. But they caution that the shift could lead to weaker bonds among dating or married couples, or even reduce the likelihood of men and women pairing up at all.

An older article, but I always found this interesting.

Edited by TerminusEst on Aug 20th 2018 at 1:12:11 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#20208: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:18:07 AM

[up] The study's sample size is so small as to be worthless.

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20209: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:33:57 AM

Men in the study sometimes referred to their girlfriends using sexist or disdainful language

I found this part more telling. It's not all that surprising that guys who don't respect their current and/or ex-girlfriends very much would be more invested in their friendships with other guys.

Edited by M84 on Aug 20th 2018 at 5:33:49 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#20210: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:51:44 AM

[up]

Psychology Today had a more in-depth article. A bit more on why and how, but with the obvious limitations stated.

It sounds more like "respect" is basically equated as dishonest behaviour, which true friends don't really have or need. So they are effectively living with a stranger.

Edited by TerminusEst on Aug 20th 2018 at 2:55:26 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20211: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:58:02 AM

That article also points out the obvious limitations of the study a bit more.

The limitations of the study are apparent. Only a small number of men were interviewed, they were all from the same university and from sports departments, most were middle-class, and all but one was white. Also, they were all interviewed by a man, the same person each time.

Also, was I the only one who cringed at the words "sexual pollution"? Yeesh, if someone is referring to the sex life in their relationship with those words, that speaks volumes.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#20212: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:00:31 AM

I wouldn't put it like that, but I get the meaning. An annoying imp at the back of your head.

Edited by TerminusEst on Aug 20th 2018 at 3:00:07 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#20213: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:15:17 AM

While I have to applaud these men for being late-twentysomething and thirtysomething white jocks and feeling comfortable in their own skin to be emotionally vulnerable, trusting, and open with their male friends, I kind of feel like this sort of thing is the right thing happening for wrong reasons. The sample's small, so sweeping statements can't be made, but I can't say whether it's a structural issue in how we define the roles of boyfriend and girlfriend, or the relationship as a whole, or whether there's something genuinely more fulfilling about Heterosexual Life-Partners than a relationship.

Reading between the lines, though, is an impression that these men are complaining about their girlfriends asking them to be better people, while their bros are willing to accept them as they are, and this trend is a reflection of men simply withdrawing. The thing is, a girlfriend is a prospective life partner. Home ownership, child-rearing, finances, retirement — life and death, are all part of the conversation as well as friendship. A bro is less demanding because the shared life is, in general, more fun. You never discuss saving up to buy a home with a bro, or raising a child with a bro, or saving for their college, or managing debt, or paying medical bills, career planning, or retirement planning. You commiserate with them after the fact, you look to them for sympathy and emotional support, but you never do the nitty-gritty with them, and it's just not part of the conversation.

That said, I totally understand the fear of always having to "perform" as your best self in front of a girlfriend while a bro is more tolerant, since I've felt that too.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:16:10 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
PhysicalStamina Since: Apr, 2012
#20214: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:45:33 AM

I feel like I have to "perform" in front of pretty much everybody.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#20215: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:56:08 AM

The funny thing about "performing" is that it can often backfire. If you have to put a lot of extra work into maintaining a certain act, that shit is not maintainable.

So what's going to happen when you get exhausted and stop? "oh, I get it, you can't be like that all the time"?

No, the reaction will be "Wtf you were just lying to me this entire time??"

I've seen the performing thing go badly because people will keep up some sort of facade for years because it will keep them in a relationship. Not realizing that the fundamental incapability isn't an obstacle to overcome, but a warning sign they shouldn't be dating in the first place.

This is of course different from "be on your best behavior" attitudes which have a time and place, but the mentaltiy of needing to perform can definitely fuck up your relationships in many ways.

Read my stories!
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#20216: Aug 22nd 2018 at 5:16:41 PM

So. To talk about a old but persistent topic.

I am playing a Affectionate Parody game of Persona 4 which mocks most of the characterization in a clearly affective way, the jokes are childish but damn that I liked most of them

...except one that genuinely did make me leave the game for a fair amount of time and honestly, make me resilent to keep playing it by fear of having it again.

Basically, in one scene parodying the typical Friendship or Romance choice of Social Links in the franchise. I'd choose friendship.

And The Protagonist got raped for his horny female friend. That's the joke.

So...I got a Rapist in my team as one of my True Companions.

Hilarious game, hilarious.

Man. Female to Male Rape is funny, it isn't?

I really got angry after that scene and quit the game. I'm playing it again because otherwise is legit funny but...still.

Why author, why?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 22nd 2018 at 9:56:32 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#20217: Aug 22nd 2018 at 7:37:37 PM

Sadly thats not unusual in Western society, including Japan.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#20218: Aug 22nd 2018 at 7:54:33 PM

This old double standard revolves around the idea that women can't really rape men. Since men are always up for sex with attractive women and women are too "weak" to force men to do anything.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#20219: Aug 22nd 2018 at 7:59:01 PM

The worse part is that it actually had the MC explicitly said that he –for once— wasn’t obsessed with sex and wanted to wait at least until things calmed down.

Like, it was actually leading to a actually emotional scene.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 22nd 2018 at 10:00:31 AM

Watch me destroying my country
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#20220: Aug 23rd 2018 at 8:32:27 AM

I think I can sort of see what the joke they were trying to go for was. Like, they presented a Friend or Romance choice only to railroad you into Romance anyway, which one could take as a satirical spin on the tendency in games to shove obligatory romances down your throat whether you want them or not.

Could.

But even if that is the joke, rape is a terrible way to tell it. Rape is a terrible way to tell most stories, really.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#20221: Aug 23rd 2018 at 9:11:54 AM

[up] Actually, it still finished in Just Friends. The Protagonist still had the chance of pursuit relationships with other girls.

Is just that he was raped for one of his friends and no one is gonna mention it again. The worst part is that I actually liked the girl before that.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 23rd 2018 at 11:14:30 AM

Watch me destroying my country
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#20222: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:00:22 AM

Collegehumor made a video that perfectly demonstrates the nature of Toxic Masculinity.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
#20223: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:35:49 PM

[up]I love how arguably, it really just makes a masculine man more masculine by having him stumble upon an existential crisis and then charging at it head-on, and then picking a fight with and intimidating a disembodied voice when it tries to steer him away from pulverizing the existential crisis. He seems even more masculine by admitting how ridiculous all this manly bullshit is and being honest about how he really feels.

HottoKenai Since: Aug, 2016
#20224: Sep 4th 2018 at 4:14:43 AM

Discovered College Humor a few weeks back and after binge watching their vids, I'm honestly surprised at how good they are. Here's one of my favorites about fraternities, aka the embodiment of toxic masculinity. The funniest - and most depressing- thing about this sketch is that pretty much all of the fucked up shit mentioned has happened in real life.

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#20225: Sep 9th 2018 at 9:43:56 PM

Worth the watch over the Incel groups and how the victim hood complex they have is self-defeating.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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