Sexism

Which I have explained, clarified, reiterated, and repeated again and again,

If we are so much of a majority, why are we treated like a minority?

And if you cant tell, I have tried to move the thread into a practical discussion on this matter for a while now.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Seeing as we've had rules specifically invented for the forum so that they could be back applied so as to ban religious troopers that were personally disliked by some folks I'm not so sure. Plus there's a lot more leeway here if you want to throw shit at a male or religious trooper compared to someone else.

We may be better than Reddit, but that bar's so low Satan just tripped over it.

edited 29th May '15 7:43:18 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

@Anti: It doesn't surprise me terribly that academia as a whole ended up being America-centric in terms of language. (Thank you, World War II.) Again, though, that means that any solutions to sexism or other forms of social inequality they propose have to be taken with a grain of salt, because what works in some countries will not work in others.

@Silas: There is a specific thread for discussing OTC policy pinned at the top. If you have issues, take them there please.

edited 29th May '15 7:45:05 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Speaking of skewed populations, the One Child Policy in China is finally bitting them in their asses.

I've read more than a few articles and op-eds over the how the policy was directly responsible to the diminishing number of female births in China. Which led to an imbalance on the gender proportions, roles and the lack of available women for marriage. Which is driving Chinese men to import women, usually from impoverished neighbouring nations.

Damn, this page moves faster than I thought.

edited 29th May '15 7:45:01 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

I think the meaning also depends on the field on academia, I do IR and Politics so for me a minority is a numerical thing, I'd have similar issues with terminology when talking about Framing with a guy who does Sociology.

As for my issues, the mods know them and know the instances I'm referring to (if they don't they can PM me), though what topic is there? I see 3 pinned topics and done of them are fore questioning policy. Still your point is legit, OTC mod policy is very much off topic.

edited 29th May '15 7:47:51 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Again, you're not being treated "like a minority": throughout all of human history, privileged minorities have been oppressing and exploiting downtrodden majorities. Today the democratic notion that numerical majorities are the ones holding the power is bogus. The truth is, minorities call the shots, and have designed our regimes specifically so that the "tyranny of the majority" they so feared never happens, and that it's always their tyranny of the elites that's on.

As to how patriarchy started and why it refuses to die, I have no idea whatsoever. Do we have any good hypotheses?

Yup, those are the guys nowadays.

edited 29th May '15 7:52:26 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Thinking of minorities as dispriviledged groups is a US way of thinking.

@Gabrael, I think you are assuming people are acting on bad faith when they aren't. You have said times and times again this whole discussion was about people here dismissing women's (yours) opinion, which I am pretty sure it is not at all the case for many, if not most, people here.

X3 Yeah rich, white, alpha-male, racist, men are a numerical minority, they're the minority behind most oppression.

Well then, unit someone changes the title to "US Sexism" we're gonna have to work this out.

Also dismissing and disagreeing with are different things, I disagree with Gab but I'd never dismiss her opinion. Also I love the irony of how we're meant to be dismissing the opinions of women when my entire issue is because I've been told by women to not refer to women as a minority.

edited 29th May '15 7:54:25 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I tried to answer the question, "If we are so much of a majority, why are we treated like a minority?" but it was pretty much ignored. Probably because it was poorly written. But why should I have to make an effort to use a language the people I'm discussing with accept?

Women are a minority in many positions of power and visibility. That contributes to how they're seen in general by the society. And "being seen as a minority" does make sense to use in that manner, since there it means (I assume) being treated as if you're part of a less significant group, and therefore your opinion matters less.

@Antiteilchen: And it's still a strawman, since it assumes I've denied the problem. Falsely, which is demonstrable just by reading what I've posted in the thread.

What those posts are about is that if you want to communicate the message to people who don't actually agree with it, leave as few points open for contention as possible, so that if they're going to deny it, they can't use cheap shots like word pedantry.

And attacking people for correcting you isn't any better than them correcting you in the first place. It's usually better to leave that alone and go back to the main point. Ask them if they understand what you mean, because that's not something to be taken for granted.

It just comes down to if you want to be understood, make an effort to be understood. Don't make others make an effort to understand you (well, not strictly true, but do try to reduce it). Don't yell at people the moment they disagree with anything you say.

And exactly where am I saying that using the term minority at all is outright wrong and should never be used?

Not sure how you interpret that, or exactly what you mean, but it doesn't feel accurate.

Yes, there are people who'll take any excuse to disagree. Those are probably not the first people you should try to reason with.

There are also a lot of people on the fence, or are otherwise insecure about where they belong and stand. If you want to reach out to those people, try to make them comfortable in accepting your message. If you create a sense that they have to give something up to do so, you're creating hostility. If you present it as something they probably want anyway, they're more likely to accept it peacefully.

edited 29th May '15 7:58:06 AM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!

Because you're not a hypocrite and are goign to rise above your petty desire to drop to the level of others?

The bolded part is where I feel you're assuming bad faith of your fellow troopers.

edited 29th May '15 8:00:37 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Seriously, knock it off! You all know what question Gab is actual asking. All this semantic BS is off topic and I am going to kick the next person who does it out of OTC.

If there is honest confusion about a term someone uses, ask them what they mean, note that, and move on. Do not derail the thread with pages of arguing back and forth. English is a very imprecise language and we are never going to get terminology that pleases everyone.

So move on.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The question is then "Why patriarchy?"

Well? Why are we patriarchal?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I have had enough of this crap.

I lurk a lot because most of the time I don't have to say anything. There are more articulate tropers than myself. But this has gotten pathetic.

1) If a woman is saying that she is treated like a minority, you need to look at why and SHUT UP.

Ask her to clarify. Ask her to explain how she means that. Ask for examples but do not ever just discount her experience simply because she didn't use the words you wanted her to in a way comfortable to you.

I am a Lesbian. I know exactly how she feels and what she means because it is my experience as well.

When a black man walks down the street, he doesn't see a cop the same way a white man would. Cops don't see a black man the same way they see a white man. A black man has to use immaculate grammar and articulation to be taken seriously and not dismissed as a stupid gangbanger. Apparently women now have to watch every little word they say as well.

A black man has to fight all sorts of stereotypes and is most likely to be arrested and punished at higher rates and intensity than their white counterparts. A black man is more likely to be judge by the texture of his hair in a job interview. Black men often keep their hair really short because their natural afro has been deemed unprofessional. Black men often are passed up for jobs and are discouraged from STEM professions. Black men are also type casted as insaitable sex gods who are hung like horses.

Now look at women.

If a woman is raped, they ask what she was wearing or doing instead of did they punish her rapist. A woman often has to watch her attire in the professional setting. Hilary Clinton was judged for wearing too many pantsuits but Michelle Obama was critized for working out too much. Women are slut shamed, fat shamed, thin shamed, skin tone shamed, and told that they need to justify their confidence based on their perceived sexual value.

A woman is supposed to be sexy but not sexual. A woman is supposed to be loyal and hardworking, but only at being a housewife. A woman is supposed to be smart but no smarter than her male counterparts or that's just affirmative action and gender quotas, or worse, who did she sleep with to get her job?

So no. Gabrael's point is very well made and illustrated. And maybe it is American-centric but I highly doubt it considering that racial and gender inequality is a global thing.

If anything, her point is even made stronger because there are more people with tans than not in the world just as there are more women than people would like to believe.

So...

Instead of invalidating someone's experience, we need to fix it so that no one has to experience that kind of shit anymore and that cannot start by bitching about semantics.

Just saw Shima's post. So I am going to leave this hear and you can PM me about it to your heart's content.

edited 29th May '15 8:05:06 AM by Polarstern

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I don't think claiming women are a minority is entirely fallacious. Indeed they are sightly over 50% of a country's population which hardly constitutes as a minority.

But under certain contexts, which has been argued to death, they are a minority in places where they shouldn't be. Like political representatives and other positions that hold power over the majority.

Even with numbers on their side, thanks to sexism women aren't given an opportunity to rise to those places.

Thankfully it is getting better, specially in the US, Europe and Latin America, where women rights and representation are making a steady stride towards proper representation of women on politics and economy. While in other parts of the world we see institutionalized sexism, where women are barred by law to take positions of power.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

First rule of being an oppressive minority: suppress the opinion of the majority. (In effect, restrict access to information, representation of both their views and them themselves, as well as limiting participation in key areas of the community.)

Second rule of being an oppressive minority: devalue both the majority's perceived economic and social worth, so even if some of the above doesn't work, it'll have an uphill struggle to get anywhere to rectify anything.

Third rule: make it appear "just the way it is"... and find some scapegoats or adversaries to point at as being worse than you.

Seen throughout history. -_-

edited 29th May '15 8:21:46 AM by Euodiachloris

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

Check out my fanfiction!

Why patriarchy?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

It varies from culture to culture. At varying points, different cultures have had different levels and forms of sexism.

Modern Western patriarchy grew out of the Catholic Church's attempts to exert greater control over European society and politics in the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. In India, it's a trait of modern interpretations of Hindu tradition, which dates back to the early civilizations of that region (and probably has to do with the agriculture theory that was mentioned a few pages back). China's is derived from Confucian beliefs, which were established in the Warring States era and became the official religion of the following (Han, if I remember) dynasty. And so on.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

I'm not so sure it's a patriarchy as much as it a case of enforced gender roles. Some things are expected of men, some things are expected of women. Those who don't conform to their gender role are ostracised.

Men are expected to be physically and emotionally stronger and more or less overly sexual. If they don't, they are considered sissies (and gay, for those who find this demeaning).

Women are expected to be physically and emotionally weaker, and seductive but not sexual. If they don't, they are considered sluts (and lesbian, for those who find this demeaning).

So patriarchy because men are expected to be constantly asserting their domination of others, not women.

Yes, this is an extreme oversimplification of the problem, but I'm kinda hoping it won't be interpreted as something offensive.

Oh and for the record, I'm a straight white male.

edited 29th May '15 9:02:11 AM by C105

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.