The Latin America thread (VE, BR, AR, CU, MX...)

Didn't AMLO specifically say NAFTA is pretty much a lifeline of Mexico and he'll save it?

I find it difficult to believe any buddy act with Trump will last more than two seconds. Trump gets along with anyone he believes to be a "winner" until the moment there's a concrete conflict of interest. Obrador might wish for a relationship based on mutual respect, but anyone who's watched Trump's reactions with other world leaders knows that he doesn't really do "mutual respect".

So. That's really what he's gonna do? Not a Right Wing strawmen but his actual policy?

Wow...that memetic GTA/Sin City based Right Wing advertising was actually saying the truth.

...uh.

Confirmed. If USA is just a boring unsubtle story with Black-and-White Morality, Latin America is a Morality Kitchen Sink with a lot of Black-and-Grey Morality

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 2nd 2018 at 9:38:38 AM

About Buddy Acts...

The Latest: Venezuela congratulates Mexico's leftist victor

Maduro being Maduro.

Funny. Internet was full of jokes mocking Right Winger candidate El Bronco for being basically a Mexican Trump.

...but we got Mexican Leftist Trump.

We need a thinking emoji.

Amnesties are often part of the solution to long running internal conflict, just for the record.

I know this is somewhat old bu I have to answer to this.

"I mean, I've read accounts from Venezuelan expats elsewhere that by many regards Hugo Chavez isn't even a good representative of leftism anyway. That he's a nonspecific populist who takes a lot of common talking points and occasionally actual policies from leftism but is just as eager to engage in blatant misogyny, transphobia, and other types of fearmongering more typical of the right wherever it's convenient, and that people who defend him for being a poor innocent fellow leftist being bullied by mean lying rightists are barking up the wrong tree. "

No, chavez IS political left, is not a good representative sure but he is, is thanks to him for pushing the new latin left(evo, kristina, etc), and was pal to fidel castro, and more important since this is something many US troper since to miss, being engage in racism or other form of bigotry is not a right wing thing, castro was homophobic and Mao was pretty much a chinise dudebro, the left here in latin america IS crazy, and I can rightly said maduro is pretty much latin trump.

So economic left with a healthy dose of telling the plebs what they want to hear populism.

Honestly. I wanna beat down the person that defined Social Left as "morally decent -not even good, just decent-" and Social Right.

That axis is just nonsense. Aproving gay marriage don't have anything to do with wanting to have a Socialist utopia.

What if I approve gay marriage, combat racism and sexism and support all egalitarian ideas as possibly.

But I also become dictator of my own country, millitarizate it and put corporatives in charge of goverment agencies? Then I decide go in a full Neo Con fantasy and declare war against every country that isnt as Socially Leftist as mine. Starting by...dunno, nuking the Middle East and the South of USA before starting a genocide of all Abrahamic Religions to destroy "the biggest cause of bigotryTM" in a Neo Con wet dream of becoming the World Police.

My economic policies are hyper Right and corporations control everything alongside the millitary. But the Society is uber tolerant except of Abrahamic religions (who are see as a menace to said tolerance, which they arent but that is propaganda for you).

Also, everyone is raised to believe that we are a restauration of the Inca Empire. Just like Mussolini and the Roman Empire.

I am Left wing or right wing? My politics are about gender and race equality (not religious, but that is because the doctrine argues that religion is inherently bigoted), but my economic politics are uber capitalist.

Social Left and Social Right are weird terms.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 2nd 2018 at 6:00:23 AM

Has more to do with the originators of the terms in the French Revolution. The groups on the Left Wing who were in favor of economic collectivization were generally also the ones in favor of ending slavery and expanding rights for the disenfranchised. There's no inherent relation between those ideals other than some nebulous idea of egalitarianism which isn't necessarily universal, but they're both classified as Leftist due to that historical precedent.

By the way the society you just described sounds like a permutation of neoliberalism.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 2nd 2018 at 7:52:08 AM

It sounds like easy White And Black Morality until you get in a different context, where it lost basically all meaning.

Like. The biggest capitalist that support derregulation and smokes money is not full Right Wing just because he is not racist.

Or that Mao "kill all old people" Zedong was not fully Left because he was sexist.

I wonder if other cultures using the term was a good idea, because it hardly applies to several places unless you go full No True Scotsman

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 2nd 2018 at 6:52:00 AM

For better or for worse, the French Revolution was a major paradigm shifter and Trope Codifier when it came to national politics.

I am still amazed that the crazy paranoic Right Wing advertisment was actually saying the truth. Strawman Has a Point dont even begin to describe it.

The reason why I called him not leftist it's because, previous to his ascent as THE left wing politician in Mexico, all the other leftist parties (PRD, the Green Party of Mexico, the Worker's Party, Movimiento Ciudadano) had pushed for economic AND social progressive policies, being the ones responsible for the rights we LGBTQ+ people got. They are the ones who convinced the largest party (centre-right... kinda), to support them when they voted for marriage equality and anti-discrimination rights for trans people.

When he rose to power, he completely ignored all that and said that he'd only focus on the economic side of things and that we already had our rights (despite the fact that one of his allied parties wants to take those rights from us and even criminalize us like we're back in the 1800's).

So my problem with him, in this aspect, is not that he's not "left" enough. It's that he killed the left-wing parties who actually cared for us, took their mantle as THE left wing party of Mexico, but tossed LGBTQA+ people aside because we're a liability for the alliance that got him into power with a majority in congress.

Edited by HugoG on Jul 2nd 2018 at 7:50:20 AM

And? He can be a bigot and still be Leftist.

That is why I think that Social left and Social right are stupid definitions, it leads to a lot of No True Scotsman. A definition where a Uber Capitalist is Leftist and a Uber Socialist becomes Conservative.

That definition basically makes Left=Good, Right=Bad. Which basically...kills any pragmatic reason to have a democracy in first place.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 2nd 2018 at 7:54:38 AM

I am still completely annoyed with social progressive and liberalism (as in government out of citizens private lives) being called a left wing thing.

Edited by AngelusNox on Jul 2nd 2018 at 10:27:56 AM

Liberalism is weird. Is technically a Right Wing thing, but given that Social Right is basically being a Bigot and put said bigotry in the goverment (I would love a aversion to the rule, it would be fun), then it becomes Left.

...which makes Right-Libertarians being the weird guys on the room.

Seriously. If we are basically defining Left as Good and Right as Bad...then why we even have democracy in the first place?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 2nd 2018 at 8:53:23 AM

If you thought that your politics were dumb. Remember that the representant of a region and the brother of a congressmen did copy his goverment plan from a page named El Rincon del Vago (the corner of the lazy).

A page for high school homework. And with copy I dont mean that he took the ideas from there, but a literal copy-paste changing the names.

Yeah.

Conservatism (and by extension liberalism, in a way) isn't necessarily winged. It's more of a descriptor of change and degree. Think of it as the slope of a derivative, free of sign. For example, a socialist can be a hardcore conservative if they're from a hypothetical society in which socialism has long been a norm and are virulently against any attempts to implement capitalist policies. That was the case with many latter Cold War countries which started to move away from Stalinism towards market economies; those who wanted to maintain a controlled collectivized economy were referred to as "conservatives" despite being ideologically opposed to the ultra-capitalistic "conservatives" of the West because they insisted on sticking to what was their status quo (in this case, communism).

Reactionaries can also (theoretically) be leftists for this reason, if ye mythological wonderland of olde that they're drawing upon is a leftist one. It's just that we have yet for such a society to exist, hence all current-day reactionary ideologies being far right by the constraints of history. But there's no saying it can't happen in the future, despite all the claims about far leftism bringing about permanent utopia and hence anyone who rejects it after the fact needing to be purged.

I know, but it always sounds like the Conservatives willingly choose to always be bigoted.

It get so weird that we allow them to exist that I'm kinda happy that our politics aren't so Black and White. Sure is Grey-and-Black Morality but there something to be discussed rather than vote for the same party all the time just for Basic Human decency.

I mean. Our Right wing president wanted legalize LGTB rights and the Social Democrat Left party was in-fighting between the Racial Minorities and the Social Progressives about it.

Latin America. A place where the Non-white candidates were the most bigoted and the most "progressive" were a white woman and a white old men.

No always, after all chavismo used pretty much regresive rethoric in order to be populism to the people, always coming with this mythical time of bolivar and the revolution when we overthrow the spanish empire, just this time the empire is....whatever the hell we wanted.

Or Pol Pot and his belief in the "true Cambodians". Or the bizarre Socialist Peruvians that uses motifs from the Inca empire.

I'd guess that it have something with being former colonized countries, right?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 4th 2018 at 12:38:33 PM

I have hear A lot of defense of Mexico, and so far it boil to:

this guy is not like chavez or castro.

And unlike cuba or venezuela, mexico is a brave and strong people who will stand agains dictatorship and BLA,BLA,BLA.

in short "that wont happen to us"

La gente tiene la dictadura que se merece....

I didn't knew that Mexico was the Master Race and Venezuela and Cuba were Inferior.

I'm worried for my friends there. Everything can happen but...be wary.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 4th 2018 at 2:05:32 PM

Let face it, latin america love their dictators, they have this love hate relationship with the idea of a all powerfull caudillo.

Also, is true, that perso think that if a dictaor show up, mexican people will band to kick him out, that shit is so fucking hilarius, is 2018 and people still want their caudillos with them.

is the same story that keeps of given.