Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

I am amazed by how this thread lays dormant until the next season arrives and it's been awakened, more or less, so people can complain about the show.

Fascinating.

A poorly conceived voiceover can substantially lessen one's enjoyment of an otherwise really good movie. I had that problem with 21 Grams, though I reckon most people weren't as bothered by it as I was. That being said, I'm not generally averse to voiceovers; whenever the concept is criticized, I like to point out that The Shawshank Redemption (an example I use because it's rare to find someone who dislikes that movie, even if not everyone loves it) relied fairly heavily on one.

Some people like reiterating their opinions on certain subjects and'll take any opportunity to do so. I know I do that on occasion.

Nobody is complaining anything, we are simply discussing the formal issues of Game of Thrones and the problems it has as a TV show, and the limitations of the medium.

These are broader issues of storytelling and presentation. Saying stuff like Game of Thrones doesn't go inside the characters interior states and saying that the medium cannot do that are topics that can be debated. Since this isn't just about the flaws of the show but of the broader limitations of TV as a medium.

Voice overs work well for the histories and lore.

Exactly, they actually capture the particular style of the books with multiple characters describing events from their own biased viewpoint.

As I said, the fact that voiceovers are used badly in some movies doesn't mean that all movies, or even most movies that use voiceovers, are bad by default. Nor of course do they have to overuse it. They just need to do it tactically to reduce scenes. The Tyrion-Shae romance in the show...many scenes are spent giving space to it, as well as expanded characterization for Shae because viewers need to be convinced in that relationship so that when it ends badly it can create a tragic sense of betrayal at the trial...but the problem is by giving so many extended scenes to Shae, you make that betrayal and her sleeping with Tywin even more inexplicable.

A Tyrion VO explaining and overly idealizing her, would save time from that extended screentime you can get a sense of why Tyrion is subjectively fixating on her, And you have a logical reason why Tyrion was taken in because it's a psychological blind-spot for him, his delusions about her and so on. And if they do it like they do in the books where we don't get each character's views in every scenes where every moment and big scene is seen from a particular viewpoint you can have that suspense...like we don't get Tyrion's VO during Joffrey's wedding, rather we get Sansa's. So you wonder what the latter's thoughts are and so on. And we also get a divide between characters whose thoughts are shared to readers and those who are a little mysterious.

@Julian I do think flashbacks could've helped fleshed the story and characters out more like with what they did with the Tower of Joy scene this season.

I had an idea that they should've done a Breaking Bad-style with flashbacks. There's a short 5 minute flashback at the beginning of every episode.

So like season 1 episode 2 starts with Rickard Stark talking to Benjen, Ned, Brandon and Lyanna. He's sending them south to Harrenhal to represent House Stark and for Brandon and Lyanna to meet their betrothed, Robert and Lyanna.

Episode 3- Ned, Benjen, Brandon and Lyanna are at the tournament at Harrenhal where they meet and Lyanna saves Howland from a bunch of bullies. (Let's make them Freys.)

Episode 4 - Brandon meeting Cat and Lyanna meeting Robert. Brandon's happy and Lyanna isn't despite how excited Robert is about her. Lyanna talks to Ned about hearing that Robert's made a few new bastards in the Vale and then she tells him that she doesn't think marriage will change him.

Episode 5 is a the dance that night where we see Brandon making Ned dance with Ashara and Jaime Lannister being named to the KG by Aerys that night. Tywin is there and leaves angry.

Episode 6 is Lyanna dressing up as knight and beating those knights that bullied Howland. Then she disappears when she's against Rhaegar or something. Rhaegar goes looking for her.

Episode 7 Rhaegar is declared the winner by default and goes up against Barristan for the final round and wins. He then passes his own wife and names Lyanna the queen of love and beauty and the outrage afterwards.

Episode 8 is one year later where Brandon is just finishing his duel with Littlefinger and then him hearing about Lyanna's kidnapping. He goes to KL where he's promptly arrested when he enters the city. (We can even have it be LF's fault by making it so that LF wrote a message to Aerys that Brandon was coming to KL to kill Rhaegar.)

Episode 9 is Rickard Stark is in his plate armor ready for a for trial by combat to free Brandon. Aerys then declares fire to be House Targaryen's champion and his men tie him in his armor whilst they place a sword just out of reach of Brandon's hand with a noose around his neck.Rickard slowly burns to death as Brandon hangs himself trying to save his dad.

Episode 10 is then Jon Arryn getting a message from asking for Ned and Robert's heads. Jon talks to Ned and Robert and they decide to rebel against the Iron Throne.

And that's it for season 1. We fleshes out the previous generation Starks and get some more info on the background.

Season 2's flashbacks could be about Robert right after he's named king and his degeneration as a man.

Season 3's flashbacks would be about Jaime Lannister's important moments in his life and how he ended the way he is. It'd strengthen his character.

Season 4 would be about the important moments in Cersei's life.

Season 5 would be about Stannis' life. His relationship with Robert, his relationship with his parents, his parents' deaths, Siege of Storm's End, being named Lord of Dragonstone while Renly gets Storm's End, Shireen's birth and meeting Melisandre. It'd make his death more powerful.

Season 6 should be about the important moments in Rhaegar's life to get to understand him why he did what he did. And the Tower of Joy could segue into that.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:05:17 PM by MadSkillz

That kind of flashback I am not too comfortable with because that's not how the books tell the story. It's not backstory-time...main story now. It brings flashbacks as and when they are necessary and relevant to the plot. And that kind of backstory is more effectively done with Histories and Lore V/O anyway.

Flashbacks in TV shows are always going to be a mug's game because if you show actors when they are young or kids and need to show another kid flashback in the future, that child actor you cast the first time around won't be the same age. The problem with child actors for the main regular cast in ASOIAF was bad enough, it would be worse with child actors-in-flashbacks.Bran-Vision Pensieve Flashback makes that work because economically backstories are now about multiple characters...it's about Bran's story, but the Flashback is also Ned Stark's story, we now come and appreciate what a tragic and special character is through Bran's visions. It's also Jon Snow's story.

Using background and exposition dramatically is more effective...in Game of Thrones, the scene that made me a fan of the series and later the books is when Jon Snow and Aemon Targaryen meet and he says "love is the death of duty" and then gives that powerful monologue about his story...that conveys what the Night's Watch's vows means, it puts the Targaryens and their dynasty in context and it brings to light Jon Snow and House Stark's dilemma, since they will be the next deposed fallen-on-hard-times Great House. It also shows how the GOT universe is connected, and of course in the long run when we learn of Jon Snow's story, we have the added weight of the Dramatic Irony. Then later when Oberyn and Tyrion meet in the cell and he tells that story about Baby Tyrion...it becomes effective for similar reasons.

That's why it irritates me when they cut out exposition on principle because the exposition is not just there...it's there for character reasons, and it is often the source of the interiority that is often missing elsewhere in the show.

The most important element in all this are the actors and the performances...what makes those scenes work above (Aemon-Jon Snow, Oberyn-Tyrion) is because the actors sell those moments so well you can visualize and understand those moments. Same with that other great moment of visualization...Jaime-Brienne at Harrenhal where he tells her why he stabbed Aerys...Nikolai Coster-Waldau sells that scene.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:32:48 PM by JulianLapostat

Different mediums require different ways to tell the story.

You don't actually need to see Rhaegar in a flashback to remember him in the books.

But TV is visual. We should've been shown Rhaegar so we can put a face next to his name. The show can't endlessly pepper you with his backstory through words alone (they didn't even do this either). We need to see it.

I know plenty of people who think the twist of Jon Snow's parentage is that he's Ned and Lyanna's son and that he's a child of incest like Joffrey.

Jaime and Ned are not so different.

This reminds me of a famous quote by Eric Rohmer, a french director: "What I say, I do not say with words. I do not say it with images either, with all due respect to the partisans of pure cinema, who would speak with images as a deaf-mute does with his hands. "

Show, Don't Tell to the extreme is more or less treating your audience like they are illiterates. And its about as bad as sexposition, no exposition or aggressive cutting down which the show does.

You are right that we should have seen Rhaegar in Season 6 preferably before the finale and the revelation...but I don't think that means we should have shown him in discrete segments from the get-go. Everyone knew about Aerys the Mad King from words alone...and then when Bran's flashback showed him, viewers recognized him at once since he said, "Burn them all" what Jaime told us he said at his death.

Everyone knows Aegon the Conqueror as well and we don't see his flashback. We all know Jon Arryn is so when LF says he was the one who had him whacked that revelation went down very well.

If they had cut out some irrelevant stuff in Season 6 from elsewhere (i am thinking mostly of High Sparrow's monologue about being a cobbler and all his interactions with Margaery early in the season...too much time for characters who are strapped to a time bomb—the Broraki Scene, and also Tyrion's attempt at small talk with Missandei and Grey Worm and other wretched scenes in Meereen, also that scene where Ramsay mourns Myranda...irrelevant)...you could have room for a Rhaegar flashback in Bran-Vision, like say where he interacts with Barristan and Arthur Dayne at Harrenhal, we get glimpses or hints he's not so bad...that could establish and introduce Arthur Dayne so that duel between him and Ned has context rather than just the one scene we see him. We get a connect with Barristan who viewers might note, and we get that there's more to "Rhaegar" than meets the eye...it could be the scene just before marchng to the Trident...he tells young Barristan that there will be changes (which we know he said in History and Lore) and we hear him dispatch Arthur Dayne to Dorne...and he will say stuff like that he plans to bring the rebels alive and capture them and explain things...which could create the suspense of who Rhaegar was, whether he was such a bad guy or not.

I don't think most people got that at all...and in any case you cannot make a show for that audience.

But it's interesting because when the show prepared its pilot...the showrunners had to make changes because original audiences didn't get that Jaime and Cersei are brother-and-sister...so they added in awkward dialogues to make that clear and that solved the problem...so that demonstrates it.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:18:39 PM by JulianLapostat

@Julian I think you overestimate the general audience.

I think the showrunners have a good grasp of the general audience. They thought it was important that people get that Jaime and Cersei are twins to understand the incest...which is important to understand why Jaime throws Bran out that window.

Otherwise that action is inexplicable...so they added dialogue to convey it. It worked.

edited 28th Oct '16 11:51:59 PM by JulianLapostat

Wait who was Jon Arryn again?

The problem with not showing characters, only talking about them, is that it's very easy to lose track of them in the character stew. Unless you're writing out the relationships in Season 1, you're going to forget who's who by the time the flashbacks hit in Season 6

edited 29th Oct '16 3:14:35 AM by frosty

Robin Arryn's dad. Former Hand of the King for Robert Baratheon before Ned took up the post.

You see his corpse with the silly painted eyes in episode 1.

So a guy tried to invoke his ancient right to trial by combat instead of paying a fine.

Lmao.

Hey, non-book readers. Some season 6 history and lore videos are being released.

This is one is extremely crucial since it explains some much needed backstory for you guys.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:30:06 AM by MadSkillz

Oorah. Thanks!

Just wanna point out Lyanna saving Howland is similar to Jon saving Sam.

He is his mother's son.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:54:20 AM by MadSkillz

history and lore are one of my favorite show experiences

When the fans enjoy the supplementary material better than the show...

That's because the people here aren't fans of the show and never have been.

Also have wondered- So like do the people who like these histories and lore assume they are like created by Martin or something in his spare time? Because they rather disprove the idea that D&D don't know/don't care about the books.

Or I guess to answer my own question, the assumption is presumably that someone whose not D or D was entirely responsible, right?

edited 15th Nov '16 11:45:35 AM by Hodor2

Well I'm not sure of what your exact opinions are of the show, but the norm in both of these threads is nothing but complaints about how awful the show is and how D&D are terrible people who hate Martin/hate the books/hate "true fans".

I try to ignore it, but I periodically just get sick of it because of how constant it is.

I only read this thread, but I had the impression that the constant whining was onnly coming from a few people.

Well yes, but since they are pretty much the only people posting in the threads, it's kind of a moot point I think.

Well by "a few people", I meant really one person, people joking about Dorne/twenty good men and the like notwithstanding.