The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

...Whale, as I said in the post, those questions are to help determine if it qualifies as porn with plot. Pedopandering is an entirely different issue with different guidelines.

edited 28th Apr '12 5:11:27 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Where are those guidelines regarding pedo-pandering material, BTW? The last revision of the General Announcements post seems to be more "hard and fast rules" than "flexible guidelines" on the matter.

edited 28th Apr '12 5:34:59 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I want to reiterate that flexibility on what constitutes pedo-whatever in no way prevents us from being quite rigid about what we do with it once we find it.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Did anyone say otherwise?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

All of the characters in Morenatsu with possible sex scenes are well over (at least 16) the legal age of consent in Japan (13), both where it was made and where it takes place. And most of them don't even look young enough to be kids. One of them looks easily 30. Since we as tropers come from all over the world, you may be surprised to learn that 12 or 13 is the legal age of consent in a lot of countries, especially Spain and its former colonies. It's virtually impossible to deny that chasing a prepubescent is pedophilia, but after that age the developed world tends to disagree wildly about where to draw the line, ranging from as young as 12 to as old as 19. Even U.S. states range between 16 and 18. The dating options in this story are (AFAIK) no younger than 16, were not photographed from anyone (a huge legal distinction), and often look significantly older than their informed age.

edited 28th Apr '12 6:42:14 AM by Gilgameshkun

The mods already said that we're not giving much weight to Japanese standards. The site is hosted in the US, and most of our readership/viewers are US citizens.

edited 28th Apr '12 6:39:26 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Oh dear...is there no escape from American dominance in the online literary world? Can't I just be an islander in peace without caring what is or isn't legal in California?

All this gives me a headache. I participated in the editing of these different pages in good faith, and I'm not happy with the accusatory tone I'm hearing lately.

edited 28th Apr '12 6:46:16 AM by Gilgameshkun

Spain's age of consent is 14. But really, most of the world operates in the 15-18 range. There are quite a few countries with 15.

edited 28th Apr '12 6:47:33 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

Ahh, I must have been thinking of Mexico or the Philippines then.

What "accusatory tone" are you talking about?

edited 28th Apr '12 6:46:27 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

The tone I'm referring to that I hear now and then in this recent chaos, is the notion that these works pages we've been working on are somehow implicitly creepy, dirty, nasty garbage that shouldn't belong anywhere. You know, calling Morenatsu "pedo" when none of its creators or fans think so, because of some anally strict definition dictated by the most easily offended elements of a society an ocean away.

edited 28th Apr '12 6:51:05 AM by Gilgameshkun

If the characters in question are over 16, then I don't see why you should worry it even could fall under "paedo-pandering". We are not applying the strictest 18 year old standard. Globally, countries with an age of consent over 18 make a very small part of the world. 15-16 seems to be most prominent.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

Do you know for sure that it was flagged for pedo pandering and not because someone just thought it was porn?

Good. The whole argument exasperates me — and that's not the only article or works page I've been debating lately. Yes, a lot of these works are mature works. A lot of them contain erotic content, sometimes strong, sometimes even pornography. But why bother troping something because it's pornography? No, we're interested in works like these because they're developed stories, with developed plots, and developed characters, and they speak to us in ways that register well to the north of our loins. And we're not all kids — sometimes we're well into our adult years, and want to trope and discuss and edit things that interest us as adults.

All this is pushing me to the brink, and I'm losing all faith in TV Tropes as a place of frank legitimate international literary discussion. It is extremely inappropriate and culturally insensitive to enforce rules that harshly judge a non-American work by American average morals — in general, it's bad to force unwanted values systems on a well-adjusted person with a different system.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:02:25 AM by Gilgameshkun

Porn with Plot is still porn. I've been keeping up with this thread and noticed that you have a couple of times referred to the standards where you live being laxer than those which this site is beginning to apply. Sadly, this is something you're*

just going to have to deal with, as the standards are based upon this site's largest audience: Americans.

Basically, just because something isn't considered porn where you live, doesn't mean that this site is obligated to apply that definition to this policy... Although relatedly, you'll probably find that the best way to argue the case for any of these works which you feel should be kept would likely be to try and say why it is Plot With Porn rather than Porn with Plot, and let P5 take what you say into consideration when they decide the works' fate here.

EDIT: Ah, you edited. One moment.
COUNTER-EDIT: As I said, Americans comprise the vast majority of the troper population, and while you may consider it insensitive for them to push their morals onto you, it is similarly bad for you to push yours onto them. Why should the majority of people here be forced to permit works to be listed here which they would deem as porn?

edited 28th Apr '12 7:20:35 AM by Sabbo

The understanding I had when signing on, is that There Is No Such Thing As Notability. Cultural differences may be what they are. We weren't pushing things on anyone else — we were documenting and commenting on them as tropers. We didn't necessarily care whether something was porn or not or whether or how random people could get off from it, as any developed literary work was fair game, and some of us truly did appreciate it first and foremost as literature. But with this troper contract suddenly turned upside down, it's like I've walked into a twilight zone where I'm having to defend years of once-legitimate edits as if I did something horribly wrong — as if I'm some kind of creepy deviant for daring to candidly take a literary interest in mature works and tropes. In the past, I was emphatically assured that this would not become a problem. That promise has been broken, and I am, quite understandably, irritated.

TV Tropes was my quiet serene refuge for an always-thinking literary mind. But I don't really know how to think like a typical American. I have no intuitive sense of that. I can't even reliably vouch for what is or isn't worksafe. How am I going to trope and do it in a way that gibes with Americans? There's just no way. You have to be part of that American mainstream society. And what if you aren't? Just guess? Wing it? If someone's going to expect American, they're more likely to be harshly judgmental toward someone who fails to perfectly deliver it. It's a fantastic way to alienate perfectly good tropers.

To maintain credibility, TV Tropes needs to welcome and foster a forgiving respect of diverse tropes, diverse works and diverse troper origins, worksafe and mature alike, and encourage peaceful problem solving that doesn't smack you in the face. I know the internet is full of trolls, but the prescribed cure is worse than the perceived disease.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:39:29 AM by Gilgameshkun

Is there a place to put defense for works the P5 are going to look at now that the list page has been locked?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.

^^ No Such Thing As Notability does not, as has been repeatedly pointed out, mean "we will allow pages on everything". Doesn't now, didn't before even the The Google Incident. All it's saying is that notability isn't a limitation on having a works page, unlike on The Other Wiki.

^ You can post them to the discussion page, and a mod will edit them into the main page itself.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:41:26 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump

No Such Thing As Notability isn't related to this issue. All that page ultimately means is that how popular or obscure a work is has no bearing on whether or not we trope it. That doesn't mean that there aren't other standards that determine whether or not we'll have a page on certain subjects. In this case, porn goes, regardless of whether it's popular or obscure. It's a totally different set of criteria than notability.

Also, the reason the site follows American guidelines is because 1. the site's owner is American and 2. the server is based in America which means that it's subject to American law.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:40:39 AM by JapaneseTeeth

Reaction Image Repository

Yes, I'm well aware that it doesn't mean we want a list of everything. Otherwise there wouldn't be serious discussions on whether to cut trope pages that aren't actually tropes, and things like that. But good faith should account for something, especially when it's spent over years of meticulous editing.

And, as I have tried to say before, my concern isn't just the harsh treatment of porn, but also the treating of non-pornographic erotic content as if it is also pornography, and created and troped with pornographic intent. It's a highly loaded implication.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:42:37 AM by Gilgameshkun

No Such Thing As Notability means that we have no notability standards. This does not mean that we have no standards at all.

And yes, you should just guess/wing it. Reading through all the threads in this subforum should give you a decent idea of the current standards (particularly the stickies' opening posts), and lacking that, I'm sure that if anything needs to be done to clean up pages and examples you write, it will be done (or flagged, in which case you could argue the case here or in a PM to one of the P5 members).

Nin nin.

EDIT at your edit: If it's erotic but not pornographic (ignoring pedo-pandering, of course), then it will likely be kept (although perhaps kept under watch, or locked, or another of the various actions P5 have the authority to decide upon). Just make sure that when you say "erotic" that you're using the definition TV Tropes uses, not your own. And yes I know you said you find that difficult.

Final edit: And that's me done for the night. I hope there won't be too much to read up on in the morning.

edited 28th Apr '12 7:54:49 AM by Sabbo

But still, even those few works that do have some degree of pornographic content, are still chock-full of legitimate literary relevance. This was always readily acknowledgeable. Hell, the sex scenes in both Morenatsu and Roommates 2009 practically don't even have to exist — the built-up story is far more interesting than some token explicit delivery. These works shouldn't have to be punished for it. For Morenatsu alone, easily most of the fanart out there isn't pornographic at all, and is often quite G-rated — that's what allows the Morenatsu article to have such a full Image Links subpage.

Errr, we're cutting works that are primarily pornographic. Like 75% porn, for example. We are not cutting A Song Of Ice And Fire because it has descriptions of sex scenes.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

@Nohbody You mean the discussion age of the work itself?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.

^^^ Then it should be safe. Works that can function without the sex scenes are much more likely to pass the evaluation.