Rename proposed: Inspector Javert

@18 - makes me think of this format:

• Unjust Inspector Antagonist - Javert
• Sympathetic Inspector Antagonist - Zenigata
• Friendly Inspector Rival- Lestrade
• Secret Inspector Ally- Gordon
• Inspector Oblivious - unchanged
• Arresting Inspector - Friend on the Force (should be supertrope to Lestrade and Gordon)

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I don't like the name Unjust Inspector Antagonist. I think it misses the point of the trope.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

No, it doesn't. Note that Jean Valjean, the target of Javert, was a parolee, and thus served his time due to justice. For Javert, It's Personal, and he's going above justice in hounding Valjean further. That's even putting aside Valjean's original crime (stealing bread) or actions since.

edited 3rd Jan '12 6:38:28 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Just saying he's unjust could mean anything. It could mean he's corrupt for all we know. It's vague.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

Valjean broke his parole and was, under the law, a fugitive. What makes Javert this trope is refusing to acknowledge that Valjean had reformed, something he could not have done under the restrictions of the parole system where he was ostracized and discriminated against by the populace. Valjean stole silver from the bishop who finally took pity on him and got caught, but was redeemed by the Heel Realization brought about by the bishop refusing to turn him in and giving him the silver to buy his life/soul back. When Javert meets Valjean again it's 10 years later and Valjean has been living under an assumed name with a sterling reputation and is even the Mayor of his village.

edited 3rd Jan '12 6:48:57 PM by Elle

Exactly. Jean Valjean was in fact a criminal under French Law, and Javert was acting entirely was the French system of law and justice said he should act. It wasn't "personal". It was his job.

edited 3rd Jan '12 6:50:52 PM by Auxdarastrix

Javert was hounding Valjean specifically, when there was a little something else going on at the time. He was following the law, yes, but as he realized by the end of things, he wasn't sure where the obligation under the law and his impetus under his personal morality began and ended.

But hey, this is why we shouldn't be reducing characters to tropes.

And again, I went off of my understanding of the definition, not forcing it to fit to a specific character.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

And just as, if not more importantly, he adhered to the letter of the law, instead of realizing that "illegal" and "wrong" were separate things, and only the first applied to Valjean.

Javert did a lot of other stuff with no connection to Valjean, both in the book and the musical. Valjean was just his "special" interest. It was personal, but being personal was not the primary motivation.

edited 3rd Jan '12 6:59:38 PM by Elle

He didn't adhere to the letter of the law, but to say any more would be spoiler worthy.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Book or musical? I think it's old enough to be Spoilers Off anyway, the book is long in the Public Domain, but say it in spoiler tags if you must.

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:03:13 PM by Elle

Musical, for me. I really should read the book. Either way, isn't the actual action at the end the same?

In any case, I still think we should base this off of the common definition. Readings of any one work easily vary between people, so of course I could be wrong. However, a trope definition should be straightforward.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

If you mean the part where he commits suicide because he can't live with the idea of being indebted to Valjean for sparing his life, that's one of the outcomes I wrote into the revised definition proposal (Heel Realization and/or Villainous Breakdown). I tried to make it broad enough so it's not just Javert, but it wouldn't do if the new name and definition excluded Javert.

If you mean some other part, you're going to have to say it straight out.

"Willingness to act outside the law" isn't even in the existing trope definition, but came from the discussion as something that sometimes happens.

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:09:40 PM by Elle

That is what I mean. By the way, I can't really get behind broad definition changes that change the original definition intent (I can't remember if that is or isn't what you did, or what I suggested).

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:11:13 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

It's all there on the other page and still open to critique. I tried to keep the base of it and mostly expanded on the motivations, added the usual consequences according to Rule of Drama, and cut optional plot things that seemed non-essential.

What the essence of the trope is seems to be is "Inspector that doggedly enforces the letter of the law against a protagonist, while ignoring the spirit of it." Or Something. Maybe.

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:24:05 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

The trope namer doesn't matter. What is the spirit of the trope? What is this trope about? This whole argument has proved that having the trope namer is a bad thing because none of you can really agree what sort of inspector he even was.

It's better to have a clear trope with a clear name and definition then just pointing at one character and watching you all bicker about what his traits even are.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

We already know we're going for a rename, shima. We're trying to figure out what the Heart of the trope is since the page isn't actually all that clear, especially factoring in perceptions of what the trope it outside of the description.

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:26:28 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

My answer:

• The Inspector is engaged in a Stern Chase with the protagonist.
• The inspector character is or thinks he is following the law by doing so.
• The inspector is still in the wrong even though he's following the law, making him the antagonist. There are a usual set of reasons why he's in the wrong (not just "spirit vs letter").
• The inspector believes he's right and is difficult or impossible to convince otherwise. Again there are a usual set of reasons for this.

edited 3rd Jan '12 7:31:33 PM by Elle

"Inspector that doggedly enforces the letter of the law against a protagonist, while ignoring the spirit of it."

I don't think Javert was outside of the spirit of French jurisprudence, as it existed at the time. Les Miserables was in part (among many other things) a statement both against the letter and the spirit of French law of the time. The Spirit of French law was "once a crook, always a crook".

The following is the core of the trope, as currently written.

---

Inspector Javert is the well-intentioned law enforcement officer (or detective, or Bounty Hunter) who legitimately believes that the hero is a bad guy and doggedly pursues him in a Stern Chase, seeking to get him. He does not realize that the hero is either Wrongly Accused, or has already redeemed himself for crimes done long ago.

---

My proposal basically adds "or doesn't care" to "doesn't realize" and adds "hero doing illegal things for morally good reasons" to the reasons. "Doesn't care" applies mostly to the last two, not the Wrongly Accused part.

Edit: One more song lyrics for page quote fishing. Javert is caught infiltrating La Résistance and at their mercy. Valjean convinces them to give Javert to him to take care of (presumably kill), then secretly sets him free:

edited 3rd Jan '12 8:12:34 PM by Elle

@29 - unjust does not imply "corrupt". It means "Not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair", which is a long way of saying he doesn't serve Justice. He represents the law, and at the same time, goes against Justice. He may be legal, but rarely Right.

That's what I think the heart of this trope is: a representative of the law who unjustly pursues the hero. The stark contrast to Sympathetic Inspector Antagonist, who justly pursues the hero.

edited 3rd Jan '12 9:58:25 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

There is no point to Theme Naming; it's just snowcloning. Making the tropes "align" is a bad reason to rename tropes; they should stand on their own when possible. Renaming tropes confuses and irritates people. It's a necessary hassle to try to make tropes clearer, not a miracle cure. Again, is someone going to put forth an actual reason why we're renaming this trope, or is this just a knee-jerk action due to a similar trope being renamed?

"Inspector" is not meaningful outside the context of the original trope namers, so it would be pointless to keep it in a new name anyway. The word can refer to a type of police officer, but without the context of the trope namer, any other law enforcement term would serve better.

Redefining the trope based on the debate over what is law and what is just is just going to fall into the whole "What is Lawful" mess of Character Alignment. In the Les Miserables example, technically Valjean is a criminal, but only according to a justice system that itself is unjust. Morally, Valjean is not deserving of punishment and harassment by Javert, ergo, he is "innocent". Is it lawful to follow the law or the follow a sensible moral code? There's no good answer beyond semantics, so redefining the trope according to terms of justice and law won't help.

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!

• It's named after a character and that's against the rules because anyone not knowledgeable of the character has no idea what the trope is from the title.
• As already demonstrated in this very thread, even if you know the character, that character is known for so many things outside just the trope it's hard to figure out what the actual trope is from just that.
• It's already been decided in the Zenigata TRS that Inspector Javert, Inspector Lestrade and possibly Commissioner Gordon are all going to be renamed for that reason.

We aren't trying to redefine anything, we're trying to figure out the core of the trope so that the new name will reflect it.

edited 4th Jan '12 12:42:03 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

I think the use of Javert to describe a particular type of character or behaviour does have some currency in the world at large. In a Star Trek: DS 9 episode for example, though they did feel the need to explain the reference.

edited 4th Jan '12 3:16:24 AM by Wulfram

But even in this very thread, people can't decide what his name is supposed to define. That makes him a bad trope namer. We need a clear name and a clear definition.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick