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I don't expect you to agree, you clearly like the book.
Just understand where the people are coming from. I can see why people would like the book, I can also see why would people would hate the book quite a lot.
edited 19th Jan '12 5:31:17 PM by MrAHR
I got lots of Anti-Sue vibes from Katniss, but I haven't read the books in a while. All I know is that by the third book, I was not feeling good about her.
But in the first book, I thought she was okay. Or maybe I was too busy being annoyed by Peeta's existence to pay attention to her.
edited 20th Jan '12 5:16:56 PM by SnowyFoxes
I didn't think that Katniss was a Mary Sue in terms of competence, at least not at a level that would break my suspension of disbelief. What did annoy me about the book, however, was the fact that the non-Katniss characters seemed to exist more to provide motivations for Katniss rather than to act on their own. Prim was the poor innocent girl that needed to be saved, Rue was the sacrifice whose horrible death kindled Katniss's rage, even Peeta was mainly defined through his love interest plot. Given this, I can see where the Sue accusations come from — it's all about Katniss, in the end. (To get back to the original topic, this was one thing I liked better about Battle Royale — the characters all had their own goals, and that generated a lot of the conflict, which made things more interesting.)
I also didn't think Katniss was the most proactive character; capable, yes, but she didn't really come up with plans on her own. This didn't bother me at the beginning, where I could easily have seen her as overwhelmed by the situation, but as the book progressed I wanted her to start thinking more about her role in all of this and what she was going to do about it. (I've only read the first book, however, so this might get better in the sequels.)
You know I thought that The Hunger Games could have been better.
Battle Royale sounds at the very least an earlier take, with a serious message and older (or perhaps more general target audience.
So I'm hoping that having read The Hunger Games first, Battle Royale won't be spoiled by glaringly annoying comparisons.
So the only question is what format to watch it in (apparently aside from novel and film there's also a manga - and the manga is the doorstopper!).
What year did the film come out?
edited 22nd Mar '12 3:44:31 AM by UltimatelySubjective
2000. It's pretty good, but I'd recommend the novel. The manga is kinda...eeeeeh...
oh god, i'm sick of hearing this battle royal crap...
Battle Royal is one of the most ripped off works I know of. Or at least that's what I'm told. The condemned movie Stone Cold starred in was apparently a ripoff too.
I read the manga, it was...well, it was good without any knowledge of the book or the film. But yeah, even with that opinion, I reccomend the book.
Robbie: Then why are you on a thread made for discussing it? Seriously.
edited 22nd Mar '12 10:37:15 AM by MrAHR
I liked the first "Battle Royale" film, though I preferred the second one. And I am glad that I am not the only one who can see that at least the film version of "The Hunger Games" does highway robbery on the afore-mentioned film. (going by the trailer and associated gossip at least. I have no interest in going to the cinema to catch a screening of THG)
I like The Long Walk myself.
Preferred "Rage" myself. (read it in the same anthology that had The Long Walk in it, ("The Bachman Books")
Pity King lost his cojones and let it go out of print in deference to the same sort of scum who got on Marilyn Manson's case after Columbine. (to which Manson gave them the best and most famous one-fingered gesture in music history)
That is a shame, yeah. Disappointing when those kinds of things get in the way.
Here is why I think Katniss is a Mary Sue:
1. Girls raised on near-starvation diets end up with bone deformations, bad teeth, and thin hair. Yet somehow Katniss is starving, but only just enough so that if you slap some makeup on her, she will turn heads.
2. She's the best archer in the whole world. I understand that the author does at least bother to explain why this is the case, but the notion of anyone, even a girl who has spent many years hunting moving creatures with bow and arrow, can pick up a bow, use it for a few hours, and be confident enough to shoot an apple out of a pig's mouth without injuring the people eating behind the pig is kind of ludicrous. All bows take time and practice to get right, sort of like how boots don't feel right until you walk a few miles in them.
3. Katniss is given a range of implausible social skills for a girl with her lifestyle to have. First she is shown to be a kind of loner who doesn't really have any social skills and has major trust issues (to the point that she even doesn't understand something as simple as "this boy has a crush on me, which is why he is nice to me"), then latter she somehow has the natural charisma to lead armies, despite never having an opportunity to learn such skills. Alexander the Great wasn't able to conquer the world because he was born that awesome, he trained under the likes of Aristotle for that role. So who trained Karniss Everdeen to be the spiritual leader of a country the size of North America?
4. All the boys love Katniss. Sure, she only ever thinks of herself and is seemingly ignorant of the notion of affection for others, but that doesn't matter, does it?
5. Whenever something comes up that could and should be a major hindrance to Katniss, she whips out some hidden talent we didn't know about until that very moment. An arena where she has to swim? Oh, despite the fact that basically no one from her hometown knows how to swim, Katniss learned because her special daddy would sneak her out to the special lake that nobody else knew about and teach her to swim (even though the odds of her father knowing how to swim are low to zero).
6. The President of Panem takes far too much of an interest in Katniss, especially in the second book where she poses almost no threat to the government beyond a single small act of rebellion she managed at the end of the first book. So either the guy is just that paranoid about everything or he becomes a Super-Persistent Predator to Katniss because Katniss is the focus of the book so even world leaders should pay attention to her.
7. The same thing goes for District 13's leader. Why does she make Katniss her enemy? Did she really think Katniss was planning on taking away her throne? Good lord its like paranoia is confused with leadership skills in this setting. Either that, or Katniss Everdeen is the hero, so let's all worry and fret about what Katniss is doing.
8. The mockingjay pin. The story never adequately explains how, exactly, Katniss is so beloved by the mayor's daughter that she is given what is probably an ancient family treasure as a gift. Is it mentioned in passing that the two spent some time together once? Sure. Do we actually see the two acting as best friends should? I don't recall that, no. So Katniss is so special that priceless treasures are given to her, even by characters that she seemingly ignores.
9. Even the damn cat treats Katniss as a special thing. While the cat is seemingly a nice, gentle creature around everybody else, it spits at Katniss. Why? Because Katniss is just that speshul.
That is quite the impressive list. Well formatted.
1. The author takes great pain to point out that the vain Capitol has RIDICULOUSLY good cosmetics and beautification methods. Katniss herself remarks how shocking it is they can make her look as good as she does.
2. She's never said to be the best in the whole world, just very good for her age and upbringing. Her skewering the Apple was hardly that impressive an action given that it wasn't that far away from her, it was meant to showcase her boldness not her skill.
3. The whole point that Haymitch makes is that Katniss SUCKS at being social and amiable, she can't move people on demand and has no charisma. They have to go to painstaking lengths to bring out the side of her that they need to inspire the rebellion.
4. Two. Two boys are in love with Katniss.
5. The swiming thing didn't catch me off guard, it was rather well built up given that we where shown the lake and what not much earlier in the book.
6/7. Snow was fooled, he thought Katniss was in on the rebellion from the beginning and was tricked into turning all of his attention on her rather then on his real enemy: Coin. And both of them ARE clearly paranoid, they are dictators, constantly afraid of losing their power.
8. Is there ever any indication that it is a family treasure? Didn't Mage's aunt give it to her or something?
9. Eh, I don't find it that odd. Cats are picky about who they like and do not like and she was kind of awful to it.
edited 23rd Mar '12 12:30:19 PM by LMage
WHY though? Really, the whole natural pretty = natural good REALLY farking pissed me off. And unless they gave her surgery, while her face might be nice to look at, every other part of her...
edited 23rd Mar '12 3:46:17 PM by MrAHR
Doesn't she wear fairly conservative and covering clothes? (jumpsuits, baggy jackets, etc.))
Yes, and she is still depicted as being naturally pretty, as are most of the good guys, while all the bad people are fake, frivolous, and blah blah blah.
It's gorram sickening.
Well, I wouldn't call Effire Trinket, or Kat's prep team evil but they are still portrayed as frivolous and vain.
Yes, yes they are. And it's disgusting. The black and white morality is so...ugh.
When is the Prep team portrayed as evil? Or Effie, Cinna, or Pulatarch's assistant for that matter?
Cinna is yet another case of the "natural beauty" while the prep team is basically characterized as vain idiots because they enjoy their job.
Cinna is also another example of how Kat is a mary sue, since a super wonderful stylist is handed to her on a silver platter, while all the other tributes from all the other years got crap ones, even though it's REALLY EASY to make a cool looking concept with coal.
edited 23rd Mar '12 6:33:34 PM by MrAHR
But still, they are never evil and Katniss DOES like them.
They are never portrayed with an ounce of depth or dignity. Which is just shallow characterization and lazy on the author's part.
The prep team doesn't even get the dignity of being human. I man, Katniss calls them "pets" at one point.
But then Katniss does dehumanize other people very easily and with alarming regularity...
edited 23rd Mar '12 7:48:15 PM by Bur
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