The History of Christians and Jews

@abstractematics: Because leaving your own religion isn't simply a decision you take - and then you're done with it. Especiall not if you were so fond of it that you were prepared to kill for it, as the story goes (though I totally don't believe that this actually happened, as it sounds heavily overdramatized.) Most people struggle with that for years, some for the rest of their lives. If Paul's conversion was really as drastic as depicted, and if he was as fanatic before the conversion as he is portrayed, then this must have been a severe trauma for him.

As for the argument that "they were jews", think twice. There was a fierce battle going on between jewish and pagan christians. And even the jewish-christian community had very, very good reasons to hate their mother religion. Granted, it wasn't anti-judaism in the modern sense (the idea of "race" only gathered momentum much, much later), but it surely was a hateful, spiteful attitude they had. And the gospels are witness to that spite.

As for John: Jn 8:48-58; and the whole passion sequence which depicts the jews as evildoers who collectively demand Jesus' death. As for Paul, sorry but the sick and twisted ramblings of this lunatic make me so mad I'm not prepared to revisit them in order to dig up quotes.

If you want to get deconverted, I suggest that you refrain from any christian activity for a while; during this time, read up on the theory of cult theology. And then re-read the new testament with an eye for its cultish elements.

edited 23rd Sep '11 12:24:53 PM by vijeno

All religions become political institutions eventually if they expect to grow. It's a natural part of the life cycle of a religion.

That may be the most Hate filled speech I have heard in the past... lets say a month.

Have you read the bible? The entire bible is the story of the JEWISH PEOPLE! Not the story of the people around them, but the JEWS! In fact, when the church first started allowing Gentiles to become Christian, there was a long and impassioned debate within the church about whether or not these people had to follow the Jewish Customs and Traditions. The "Pagan Christians" vs "Jewish Christians" vs "Jews" did not come until much later. If anything, the people the Bible lashes out at are not the Jews, but the people leading the Jews, the "Blind Guides" and "Whitewashed Tombs".

Also, I have read up on Cult Theology, and if you want to have a argument on whether or not Christianity is a cult, we can have that in a different thread, where we can be rational people who are arguing because they feel like the other person is wrong, and out of love, want to correct that. Not because the other person is wrong, and now I can tell them how stupid everything they believe in is.

Also, as far as your discription of Paul goes: You just called the man who wrote most of the New Testament a nut job. Flame Bait Alert! Flame Bait Alert!

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:13:48 PM by Jimmmyman10

If one does not take Jesus as God you must say that he is a lunatic, as per C. S. Lewis.

I don't think Christians came to hate Jews until they had enough political power to do something about it...

Yes With Absolute Power Comes The Ability To Strike Back At Those Who Scorned You.Sad,because I think Christians and Jews would have had a better history if they church didn't become power hungry.

From Matthew 22: 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

Does that sound like hate to you?

The early Christian writers made it clear that the NT rests on the OT (to which the rest of the Jews did not agree, causing a divergence). Particularly Christians are supposed to be grateful to Israel because of the setting of foundations for the New Testament.

The most common historical Christian argument I hear against jews is "le peuple déïcide" (the god-killing people).

Which in haters' mind, probably renders everything Jesus said about loving them moot, because they hadn't "betrayed" him yet when he said it.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:53:20 PM by Medinoc

even House get into it when dealing with a patient with a Congenital inability to feel pain. Tongue firmly in cheek.

• House: Ms. Morgenthal. That’s one of them Jew names. Ashkenazys are a higher risk group.
• Foreman: On the other hand, she says she doesn’t have it. And she’d be dead by now if she’d never been diagnosed.
• House: They killed our Lord. Are you going to trust them?

edited 23rd Sep '11 3:37:01 PM by joeyjojo

@abstractematics: Because the writer of John recorded a heartwarming saying by Jesus, this necessarily means that said writer was acting on it when he wrote about the Jews?

Well, I don't know about you, but my experience with humans suggests that our actions are often pretty inconsistent with our own ideal self-image. (Isn't that what christianity is about, what with humans being sinful and all that?)

I wouldn't see that early christians were any better than any other group; and a group that is establishing its own identity against the larger, older group will most likely be prone to hatred. That, plus the us-vs-them mentality pervasive all through the NT (look up the sermon on the mount!), make me think it more than likely that John, Paul, and many others hated the Jews. We're talking about a basic religious cult movement here. Have you ever seen one that was without spite against all outsiders? I haven't.

The real question is, how did they define the term "Jew"?

The sermon on the mount? You mean this Sermon on the mount?

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. 23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Yeah, real "Us VS Them" mentality there. Unless I am mistaken, it is specifically telling you to love your enemies. So even if the Jews were their enemies, this would mean that the Christians were supposed to love them. And of course "love them" means "Hate them", that's obviously what they meant.

edited 24th Sep '11 12:00:51 PM by Jimmmyman10

You might want to quote Mt 6 along with it. And I'm quite positive that you want to include your own guess as to who the "hypocrites" are - US, or THEM? Those who are WITH JESUS, or those who are AGAINST? Those SAVED or those DAMNED? Those he has taken up the sword against, maybe? Those who will be with Jesus "on this day", or those thrown into the "fiery furnace", where there will be "weeping, and gnashing of teeth"? Those who have ears to hear, or those who don't? Those who are selected, or those who aren't? Those for whom it would be better if they were never born? The wise virgins, or the foolish ones?

The list goes on. This is an ideology of hatred, hidden behind grandiose words of love.

And I don't even blame anyone for it. This is the way ideology works, has always worked, and will always work. The moment you start out with crappy assumptions, this is what happens - regardless of good intentions, which I happily grant anyone involved (exept, maybe, Paul of Tarsus, who I really really really despise - and ultimately, I even understand *him*. Leaving your old faith in such a drastic way sure is deeply traumatic. It's just that it's so extremely tragic that a mind so utterly twisted came to be the founder of the most influential religion we have).

So saying that the other side is wrong with reason is automatically is hatred, even though you have given more than enough explanation to establish your argument? It's true that the Jews that didn't agree with the Christians were an opposition (just like the Roman persecution was an opposition). But the criticism was directed towards an incorrect approach to the Jewish faith that the Pharisees & Sadducees had. It did not mean that Jews should be forsaken. Quite the contrary, the church was to preach the good news.

But you're disregarding the whole biblical message and saying that it's just "grandiose words". The kind of "hatred" you're proposing is simply inconsistent with this notion.

x3 First, if the writers and the believers didn't take what was said and written seriously, then where is the basis of their faith?

Second, Christianity isn't just about humans being sinful but about God's response to that problem. You can't use "humans are sinful" as a reasoning to discredit history however you like.

Third, as said above, there's plenty of evidence in the Sermon on the Mount that states that Jews are not to be outcasts that should be conquered and defeated in favor of God's "new group". Light and salt of the world. "I have not come to abolish [the Law or the Prophets] but to fulfill them." Love your enemies.

I don't deny that eventually the Christians became dominant influence and the direction of persecution was turned upside down. They made mistakes over history. But your claims seem to assume an unnecessary general hatred that leaves out some other facts.

Galatians 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

NT states that being Jewish or Greek has no bearing. Jews remain the chosen nation designated for a special purpose. Nothing takes that away. The original disciples were Jewish. Notably, Peter was. Paul was also. Stephen, who was stoned by a traditional Jewish killing method, was as well I believe.

Acts 1:

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Jerusalem. The sacred central city of Israel. And then to Judea, and then Samaria (former home of northern Israel, as opposed to southern Judah). John 4:22 even states "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

edited 24th Sep '11 11:09:59 PM by abstractematics

Gehenna is used in the Gospels as a place for people who actively sin, it is not a "catch all punishment for those that do not follow Jesus."

edited 24th Sep '11 1:42:28 PM by Justice4243

Here is your difference:

Let me use you as an example. I don't agree with you. In fact, I believe you are wrong. You are not with me, you are against me. The things you are saying I would consider blasphemous, and don't agree with in any way shape or form.

Does this make you my enemy? Possibly. Does this make you one of the people described in mat. 6? Yes.

So what do I do?

Now, this the conclusion you are missing. Just because I identify you as the opposition does not mean I am supposed to treat you like most people treat the opposition. No, instead, I am supposed to love you, and put you before myself. The bible says that I need to love my neighbor.

"29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked..."

Everyone has heard this story. Now, the Samaritans were enemies with the Jews. And when I say Enemies, I mean "We don't talk to the Samaritans" enemies. Yet Jesus tells us a story of how a Samaritan was the one who helped the man by the road. Why? Because he wanted to tell us: "Even if you know someone is wrong, you don't like them, and they are your enemy, you need to put them before yourself in everything you do."

This was the message Jesus preached. You may not be a Christian, but I need to treat you better than I treat anyone else, no matter who you are.

Yes, Christians and Jews have had a rather rocky history. But now, in this age where no one religion has anywhere near a monopoly, in this age where people of all faiths live together, we can all get along, right?

TELL THAT TO THE [RETRACTED]!

In all honesty though, likely because of the Holocaust the Jews are not a group you can have trouble with as a whole. For the most part that’s good, but it can manifest in stupid ways as previously mentioned.

Still, it’s nice that many of the religious groups are doing their damndest to bury the hatchet.

My grandmother... She spends her free time going over her bible and finding symbolism in the Jewish Holidays and such. My mom was trying to explain what an orthodox Jew was to my little brother, so she said "Someone who follows all the rules, and doesn't do anything on sabbath, and observes the feasts, etc." My little brother responded with "Oh, you mean like Grandma!".

She's crazy, but in a good way. (EDIT: She is a Christian, for those of you wondering, but I think she wishes she was a Messianic Jew.)

On the other side of my family is my Grandma who comes down and teaches me about art, liberalism, and liberal art. I love her just as much.

What's your name stand for?

Also, as I already said THANK GOD FOR MAKING JEWISH PEOPLE BECAUSE THANK GOD FOR MAKING BAGELS! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM

edited 25th Sep '11 6:18:57 AM by Jimmmyman10

I find them bland myself, but each their own.

So Is your grandmother a Orthodox jew or christian? didn't quite get the irony in that, sorry for being thick.

edited 24th Sep '11 9:48:59 PM by joeyjojo

My understanding is they improve immensely if they're bought from a bakery in an area with Jews have a tendency to live as opposed to say, a grocery store.

Also, not that I'm particularly great with spelling, but it's "Christian".

edited 24th Sep '11 9:49:29 PM by Justice4243

I guess like all quality foods it depends on the skill and ingredients of who's baking it.

Jewish people are the bomb besides I wonder what would have happened if Christians were more nicer to Jewish people in the past because that would have saved a lot of bad blood between the centuries.

If people were nicer in general the world would be a better place.

This might be the most tautologically true thing I've ever read.

Yes,somtimes humanity just loves being a dick to one another for some cruddy,lame reason.

I find the whole "Jews as Christ-Killers" thing to be the epitome of Insane Troll Logic. Even ignoring the gospel accounts that say it was the Romans, not the Jews, who had Jesus crucified, theologically it makes no sense.

According to Christian doctrine, Jesus' death on the cross was a necessary step in obtaining salvation for humanity. In fact, many Christian churches teach the Jesus was sent to Earth with the explicit purpose of dying for the sins of humanity. In that case, those involved in carrying out the crucifixion were doing so in accordance with God's will and plan. Even Judas betraying Jesus was "all part of the plan".

Therefore it makes no sense to condemn anybody, much less their distant ancestors, for carrying out what Christians believe to be God's own purpose. "You did God's will! We hate you!" Say whaaaa....?