The History of Christians and Jews

I was all but thinking about how rocky the Christian faith and Judaism have been with each other and how its getting better but their are a few set backs(cough*Mel Gibson*cough)

Well, medieval Christianity's intolerance was equal-opportunity. Jews were heavily discriminated and occasionally straight up murdered, that's true; but any other religion, and especially any heretical form of Christianity, was subjected to the old "convert or die" treatment.*

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:17:51 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

^ Unfortunately, this was worsened with Martin Luther. Although he had many legitimate grievances with the Church, one of the reasons he chose to sever ties with Rome was because the Catholic Church wasn't anti-Semitic enough. Some Popes like Gregory I and Alexander II had been rather uneasy with the active hostility toward the Jewish people and wrote the occasional letter in their defense.

In general though, very little was done to stop this and many anti-Semitic practices continued.

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:11:53 AM by Pentadragon

Technically Martin Luther was anti-Jewish, not anti-Semitic. His hatred of the Jewish population stemmed from religious bigotry, rather than racial supremacy. He would have been fine with Jews who converted to Christianity. Not that that excuses On The Jews And Their Lies, of course.

There is still plenty of anti-Jewish bigotry among even mainstream Christianity today. Watch Constantine's Sword sometime. It's a documentary of the history of Jewish-Christian relations. It even shows how American military academies (such as the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs) support and even encourage anti-Jewish attitudes among students. The film also has an appearance by none other than Ted Haggard!

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

Well, not in any major denomination I can think of. I am sure that there are: for example. there was a small hubbub some time ago in Italy because of a bishop, who was expelled by the Catholic Church some time ago*

^{For unrelated reasons: he was part of the "Vatican II is evil and invalid" crowd}

being rehabilitated and immediately pulling the old "Jews killed Jesus" standby*

^{Which makes no sense anyway: the Roman Empire was controlling the area at the time, and the one who was ultimately responsible for that unlawful execution was definitely Pilate}

.

Rather, I am a bit concerned about the tales I hear of fundamentalist Protestant groups going for the whole "The Jews must return to Israel before the Second Coming, so we should try to support the state of Israel as much as possible" route. I don't know how popular this (scripturally deranged, and, I guess, really creepy from the point of view of Jewish people) interpretation really is, however...

edited 22nd Sep '11 8:57:27 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

something

I've anecdotally heard of Christians believing this as well. Not sure how wide spread it is and doubt it's endorsed by any of the larger churches, but it could be somewhat common.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Many Christians today support the state of Israel but its not all one big fundie fest.Actually Christians like to get in touch with the Jewish orgins of Christianity to get closer to their faith.I am pro-Israel but I am not doing it bring in the apcolyapse but I do believe that there should be a country that Jews can call home.I know its not perfect but then again with what they are up against who wouldn't be.

"The History of Christians and Jews..."

...is very bloody, and usually it involves the blood of Jews on the hands of Christians.

I am now known as Flyboy.

The Christians where persecuted very early on by the Jews. I'm not advocating the treatment of Jews at the hands of Christians, that would be stupid.

But we should refrain from trying to sum up such a complex topic in a sentence. That path leads to the dark side vicious arguments and thread locks.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

I'm simply pointing out the generality.

More Christians died at the hands of the Romans than the Jews, I imagine. Conversely, far more Jews died at the hands of Christians (or people claiming to be Christian) than the reverse.

I guess Christians could make the case that "they killed the one guy who really matters to us, though!" Except that it wouldn't be completely or even sort of true, since the Romans had more of a hand in that than the Jews did...

I am now known as Flyboy.

I’m kinda doubting anyone wants to spend the thread justifying the mass slaughter of various groups throughout history. Rest assured most Christians don't reflect on the persecution of the Jews of the past and think "They deserved it"

I'll grant that this hasn't ALWAYS been the case and some churches, even the larger ones had very great difficulties reconciling with Jewish groups over various reasons. However, almost ALL groups that have had any official antisemitic notions have done away with them decades ago.

The repercussions are still present however, The Prebyteriam Church has been labeled as antisemitic by some because it opposes some of the actions of the Israel military.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Why does opposition to something that Israel "did" automatically make you anti-Semitic?

Now using Trivialis handle.

Whicn would be fine, if no one was living there before hand...

hashtagsarestupid

Because all Jews love Israel, think it’s a good thing, and Israelites are constantly bullied by the evil middle-east so whatever happens in Israel must be good and whoever it happens to must deserve it. Anyone who says otherwise obviously hates Jews.

Edit: Yes, I'm probably straw-manning a bit here. I am a bit miffed that a Church group can't even speak out against perceived tragedy in a way that picks out the aggressors on BOTH sides without name calling being involved.

edited 22nd Sep '11 3:03:12 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Hey,I'm Christian and I don't think all people who are against Israel are anti-semetic.I think of Israel as chaotic neutral state and tends to be a very gray figure.But Christians like me do think that many countries really hate Israel for many reasons and some of them not very good reasons.Palestine I understand that its the lower class that suffers but I do not have any sympathy for Hamas who I can say are a bunch of terrorists.I know that not all Jews are in support of Israel as well because they have divided stances on the state.

Also lets not turn this into an Israel thread please because we can get lock if it gets too heated.

edited 22nd Sep '11 3:16:33 PM by joyflower

"...Hamas who I can say are a bunch of terrorists."

Funny how Hamas would say the same about Zionists living in Israel.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Well then there's not much discussion, people are going to be all in agreement.

It's not like anyone is going to post anything like 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing' are they?

hashtagsarestupid

Hey, the Church persecuted the Jews horribly in it's early days.

However, something important that is being forgotten is that this is found no where in the bible. Every single one of the Disciplies, including Jesus was a Jew, and so was pretty much the entire foundation of the Church. In fact, unless I am mistaken, the only Non-Jew with a book in the bible is Luke (who also wrote acts, I think). The Early church was not anti-Jewish. No, if anything, the Early church had trouble because it was too pro-Jewish, and it took them a while to realize that Gentiles could be Christians too.

Then Constantine came along, and everything went to heck. By turning the Roman Empire "Christian", he was able to do whatever he wanted under the banner of "Christianity", and somewhere along the line, someone decided to villify the Jews.

I weep for the sins of my religion.

WITHOUT JEWISH PEOPLE, WE WOULDN'T HAVE BAGELS! DO YOU KNOW HOW GREAT BAGELS ARE?!?!?!?! THEY ARE DELICIOUS!

Honestly, the Church should be the ones most loving the Jewish religion, as it is where we came from, and we should be thankful for that.

Actually, I do. Not out of "I have too", but because those are some great holidays, man.

edited 22nd Sep '11 7:51:34 PM by Jimmmyman10

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

jimmy@I also think it would be fun for Christians to celebrate more Jewish holidays with ethinic Jewish people and relgiously Jewish people.Mainly because God never told us to stop doing Jewish holidays besides Passover and Purim seem to be great holidays that I should really get into.

Paul was a Gentile Roman, if I recall correctly.

I am now known as Flyboy.

USAF@He was a Jew who was a citizen of the Roman Empire I think you are thinking of Luke.But before he was Paul he was Saul.

edited 22nd Sep '11 7:59:49 PM by joyflower

Nope, he was Jewish. He was actually a Pharisee before becoming a Christian; he just identified himself as a Roman citizen at times when he found himself in trouble with the law.

Anti-Semitism (Or Anti-Judaism, if we want to get really technical) is something that's been going on since before the time of Christianity. Not saying Israelite history leaves them completely innocent of wrongdoing (their original conquest of Canaan, if the biblical account is historically accurate, is reminiscent of a Mongol invasion), but its roots are difficult to pinpoint. It's not something I see going away anytime soon, though it has definitely receded in the West, ever since a certain world war took it to the extreme.

edited 22nd Sep '11 7:57:12 PM by tropetown

No, Paul was Jewish. A pharisee, to be exact. You know, those teachers of the law that Jesus got so mad at?

That is why he was able to write most of the new testament: he was already a really intelligent scholar.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.

Ah. I thought Jews couldn't be Roman citizens. That's why I was confused.

I am now known as Flyboy.