Marvel Cinematic Universe

If you want to get technical, Spider-Man totally killed Ebony Maw by tossing him out in the vacuum of space.

Doctor Strange seems to be the only hero in the MCU who explicitly has a no-killing policy, as he's horrified when he was forced to kill one of Kaecillus' disciples. True, he subjects Kaecillus to a Fate Worse than Death, but he still tries to stick by his Hippocratic oath.

IIRC, Luke Cage also has a no-killing policy, although I haven't seen season two. And Daredevil tries to have one, but I remember he was totally willing to kill Nobu at the season two finale.

Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist have no-kill policies but the entire Defenders team collectively agrees to put that aside for the final battle of The Defenders, on the grounds that there's no other way to stop the Hand.

Which becomes a bit silly in their post-Defenders seasons when they're all still talking about never killing people as if they didn't 9-11 a ninja cult's skyscraper hideout, but a necessary concession of the plot I suppose.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

That's true. It does seem really weird and OOC that Peter would be so comfortable coming up with a plan to straight-up kill the Ebony Maw.

But setting aside the Russos' strange interpretations of some of the characters they're working with, I do think Spider-Man has benefit immensely from the MCU's laissez-faire attitude towards killing people. Spidey's basically the boy scout of the Marvel Universe. He's the "No Killing Code" guy of Marvel.

And that's one thing that really made Homecoming stand out, compared to the likes of Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. and their films. That climactic scene where Peter climbs out of the burning wreckage carrying Toomes on his shoulders? That scene is special.

It's special because Tony wouldn't have done that for Obadiah. Steve would for Bucky because he's emotionally compromised, but probably not for the Red Skull. Thor absolutely wouldn't have done that for Hela. Quill wouldn't for Ronan. Strange wouldn't for Kaecilius.

None of these guys would risk life and limb for their archnemeses. They'd let the bastard burn. It's that distinction that distinguishes Spider-Man, that he sees all life as sacred and would gladly dive into the flames for a villain. That contrast makes his movie really stand out in the MCU.

DareDevil also burned a man alive in his first season, but the show just pretends that never happened and moves on immediately after, with the very next episode having him boast about how he NEVER KILLS PEOPLE EVER.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:58:09 AM

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Even with the Hulk, the 'He never killed anybody' isn't always consistent. I for one also think that the idea of him never killing anybody is pretty dumb.

He is supposed to be unleashed, and if it is not a particularly smart version of the Hulk, him doing the 'math' to not kill people also comes off as pretty stupid, when he at the same time can't form two coherent sentences.

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Really the fact that he has to be provoked means anyone who dies in his rampages is the fault of the provoker.

The Hulk just wants to be left alone, attacking him will obviously bring him out.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Well, sometimes he can be 'provoked' just by minor things, like being pushed around.

Take those brazilian bullies in The Incredible Hulk for examples. Jerks? Sure. But did they deserved to have their bones liquified for that? Probably not. Disproportionate Retribution is the keyword there.

But hey, the Hulk is not supposed to be a perfect hero.

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Nobu wasn't dead when Matt left, so Matt doesn't count it. You can dispute that logic, but he was also fine with leaving that one Russian in a permanent coma after throwing him off a roof in the second episode, in a move that could have easily broken the guy's spine if he landed just slightly differently, so it's not really inconsistent.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 11th 2019 at 5:55:55 AM

I think you would really love Immortal Hulk then. A lot of its from the perspective of bystanders and innocent people, including the big climactic issue where the Hulk fights the Avengers. It ends with Tony having to basically nuke the town in order to kill the Hulk, without everyone who lived in the town evacuated, but still sad to see their homes and livelihoods destroyed. Oh and the Hulk can't actually die.

Fell behind several pages back, and now caught up.

Someone asked me what was the Special Effect Failure I was referring to in Avengers Infinity War, during Gamora's death.

I was referring to the close-up shot of her falling and screaming to the camera. It's pretty obvious that Zoe Saldana isn't actually falling, but either laying down on a green screen floor, or is leaning against a wall. Her right arm is out of camera range, but you can still kinda tell she's using that arm to either lean against something, or support herself off the studio floor.

With all the memes about women choosing a bear over a man, Hollywood might wanna get on an 'East of the Sun and West of the Moon' adaptation

MCU Cap has a high HYDRA body count during WWII. In The Winter Soldier, he only kills three enemies, largely due to eschewing a gun. In each of the Avengers films, he never deals a fatal hit to a human. Civil War has him switch depending on the context. Crossbones’s soldiers are dealt lethal blows by missile or poisonous gas. But Steve also goes out of his way to rescue the special forces soldiers attempting to arrest Bucky, and chastises him for dealing with them so harshly.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 11th 2019 at 2:54:11 AM

Err, he grabs a machine gun during the invasion of the Helicarrier in the first Avenger and shoots his opponents. Also, doesn't he kick one off of the Helicarrier completely? And in the beginning battle of Age of Ultron, I'm not sure people could survive having a motorcycle thrown into their humvee, either. (The rest of the film is fine because he's only fighting robots.)

But he was on fire.

Like.

If I stab a dude in the lung and he's still gasping and sputtering when I walk out the door, then he wasn't dead when I left. Does that mean I didn't kill him?

Blaming the fire for killing Nobu instead of DareDevil is some straight-up "It was the bullet that technically killed the guy I shot" logic.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:19:35 AM

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Cap's a soldier, having him go all Thou Shall Not Kill is stupid.

Sure, he won't kill innocent people, but that's all.

Edit:Just to dial back on the Iron Man discussion: the "scraps" he had in that cave were dozens of the most technologically advanced missiles in the world.

Not only that, but he designed them, so he knows the ins and outs.

So yes, impressive as it was, he actually had far better resources in that cave.

Matt's No Kill Rule is both very loose, and even more so when he's pissed.

And he was very pissed. I think he just thought "self-defence" and left it at that.

Edited by HailMuffins on Jan 11th 2019 at 8:27:22 AM

I'm saying Matt's a hypocrite, and it's really only blind luck that he hasn't killed anyone. It's not a problem with the writing of the show (at least not in that season), it's an issue with Matt just barely holding himself back from the edge. It's him trying to convince himself of something, not really the show saying that he's a noble paragon of virtue who would surely never commit this most mortal of all sins. Matt has the supersenses to be able to tell if Nobu was dead, so if he thought the man was still alive before diving into the water to get away, then he can tell himself that if not for Fisk he would've called an ambulance, and it was self-defense at that point, etc, etc. Sort of the same way many action and mystery heroes don't consider themselves in any way culpable when they set up their enemies to be murdered by their own confederates and accomplices — Nobu's life was in Fisk's hands.

I see Matt's no-kill code as being deliberately somewhat ridiculous and impractical. It's there to demonstrate his inability to reconcile his pangs of conscience and sense of justice with the simple rage and cruelty that are also a major part of his makeup — the Devil in him, you know the deal. It's just one of the various excuses he makes to be able to live with himself.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 11th 2019 at 7:00:31 AM

I think Matt sees Nobu catching on fire as an accident caused by Nobu's own actions (deflecting Matt's baton up into a light fixture, creating sparks) thus not his fault.

@alliterator:

In the Avengers fight on the Hellcarrier, Steve indeed throws one of the mercs off the ship.

He knocks out a second one.

And has an extended firefight with the third, but he is not really shooting to kill there.

The merc has a concealed position, so Steve is laying suppressing fire to hold his position next to the lever, waiting for Tony's signal.

The third merc is finally knocked out by Tony performing a flying tackle.

So where humans are concerned, Cap will kill or not depending on each situation.

If the fight is against a robot or alien, all restraint is thrown out the window, so expect a lot neck snaps and limbs torn off.

Huh yeah I think some people are being more hard on Captain Marvel than most other Marvel movies.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

The movie in general or the actress? 'Cause the latter happened literally every time.

Well the actress because by virtue of having an actress instead of an actor may be the reason for the harsher reactions.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 11th 2019 at 4:54:15 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

The case of Nobu I find pretty regular "well that was too circuitous to say it is my fault", but the curious thing is that from season 2 onwards the characters seem to adopt a wordless perspective that killing the Hand doesn't count as "killing" because they're undead Humanoid Abomination types so they're not, strictly speaking, "human" or "alive" From Acertain Point Of View. It's just I don't think this is ever said out loud in so many words, but you can see the way Matt talks about them that's his inner logistic (and also the one the remaining Defenders adopt).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Zombies are already dead, after all.

Disney+ reported to be working on a Lady Sif show. Man, it's probably a good thing she wasn't in Ragnarok then.

Booooo Valkyrie show!!!! Forget Sif, gimme Valkyrie! Or Nakia!!!!

They better bring in Beta Ray Bill then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Gimme Sif + Valkyrie on a cosmic walkabout after the universe is (presumably) somewhat restored after Endgame.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Jan 11th 2019 at 8:08:45 AM