Is this trope YMMV worthy?: Ambiguously Gay

This trope seems to vary depending on what you think makes someone seem to be gay.

For the record, you have to Wiki Word the trope name in CamelCase on the "article title" part of a thread, otherwise the tag doesn't work properly.

I say this should be restricted to when another character comments on it. That way it's definitely completely objective.

I don't think it's a YMMV trope, but I think it's likely used wrong far too much in the same way Ho Yay often was. Like I think it says on the Disgaea character page that Vyers is Ambiguously Gay when he's married. And has children.

edited 2nd Aug '11 2:27:34 PM by Arha

It does say The Reveal can go either way (he was really straight OR really gay), so it's not like that should be surprising.

edited 3rd Aug '11 9:18:18 PM by Zeta

But there's no indication of him being gay apart from a certain amount of FABULOUS behavior. Even that is just general narcissism rather than camp. Plus, you rarely see him in the first place.

Camp Straight is sadly underused for cases like the above.

Hm. It seems like any character whose sexuality is clear shouldn't be eligible. You could argue Ambiguously Bi, but that seems like a different trope. This is someone who seems like they could be gay, but it isn't suggested outright whether they're straight or not, as opposed to someone you're guessing could swing both ways because why they are effeminate or flamboyant or why not?

Frankly, it looks like Camp Straight can account for a lot of the misuse.

Actually, it seems clear to me that the trope refers to characters whose sexualities are deliberately ambiguous. For instance, Disney animated films indulge freely in this trope—in fact, people who work on films and series aimed at young audiences (especially animators) often include intentionally gay-coded characters in their work, usually as villains or comic relief, as the main page's many examples from family movies attest. (A very young child might not notice the implications, but the parents and older siblings definitely would.) The characters whose sexualities are openly focused on in one way or another don't qualify for the trope, since that negates the "ambiguously" part of Ambiguously Gay.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:42:14 PM by Dioschorium

This trope should be linked only when there is an in-character remark about it, not when some troper suspects that some character may be gay.

For example, in Watch Men, Rorschach states that he suspects Ozymandias to be gay.

This strikes me as heavily abused as all those lists of "character that some troper thinks is hot".

^ I think that's overly strict. Like Dioschorium said, a lot of times a character like this is put into a work where overt references to homosexuality would never fly. On the other hand, if there's any reference to a character being in a hetereosexual relationship or being attracted to the opposite sex then they should be treated as Camp Straight, unless there's in-universe speculation that they are closeted.

That's also a good point, but it does sound like a subjective trope. Unless we have Word of God, people tend not to agree on what exactly is a reference to homosexuality.

No, it's a list of commonly held stereotypes that cause sexuality confusion. It could benefit from being made into a list style page with typical reaction both in and out of universe. Which might help on bad examples.

Although I'm not sure what you mean by a "list-style page" (a list of traits that usually code a character as gay or lesbian?), I heartily agree that taking note of characters' and audience members' reactions to sexually ambiguous characters is a good idea.

a list-style page like the recent Byronic Hero page did as an edit, to help clear things up.

Another problem with this trope is that people are misusing it as a synonym for Ho Yay (which itself it a mess). This trope is about looking gay or showing gay stereotypes, not gay subtext.

edited 3rd Nov '11 11:38:02 AM by Insignificant

^^ There's that, too. Of course, Ho Yay certainly provides more of a foundation for this trope, but being Ambiguously Gay, by definition, cannot derive solely from homosexual subtext.

Ho Yay and Ambiguously Gay can obviously overlap, but they are definitely not the same thing and those examples that lean towards that way (IE - Ken and Ryu taking a bath together) without any other stereotypical attitude, behavior, attire (etc.) fall outside of the scope of the Ambiguously Gay trope. Needs a fix.

edited 2nd Nov '11 7:11:43 PM by Zeta

There's a difference between "I think he's gay" vs. "people in the story/narration think he's gay."

Yeah, this is one of the things that can be there because the author clearly intended it, but it can also be a case of fans just imagining it. The Creed example in Black Cat is a legitimate one where I'd say the authors were intending it. I also know of an example in a series that I did a work page for (The Roman Mysteries) but I choose not to list this trope for various reasons.

However, it is worth noting that the trope never requires the character to actually be gay, and says that often the character turns out to be straight.

Can a trope have a YMMV subpage?

I'm starting to thing that all our Ambiguously X tropes should require that the examples on the main page require in-universe confirmation that other characters think this, while the less clear ones that may or may not be the imagining of slash happy fans could go on a YMMV page for the trope.

edited 3rd Nov '11 4:30:40 AM by Auxdarastrix

Actually, I'd hesitate to say Creed from Black Cat qualifies because I don't think it's totally correct to use "straight" or "gay" in blatant Single-Target Sexuality cases. Creed isn't heterosexual or homosexual. He's Train-sexual. I've seen various justifications for it in pretty much every direction. But it still seems off - if he was actually gay, I think Creed would show signs of it towards at least one person other than Train.

As for the YMMV question... it's fairly simple. If there are examples that are completely dependent on opinion, regardless of how tight the definition is, it's YMMV.

This trope probably deserves to be YMMV, incidentally, considering how much cultural baggage is involved with what's considered "homosexual" beyond the only actual qualifier for homosexuality, being attracted to one's own gender.

From my POV, this trope works because it is about suggesting the character's sexuality based on signs that aren't direct indicators of sexuality, most notably the Disney examples where Ambiguously Gay means "breaks out into showtunes and displays effeminate or flamboyant behavior", although there's some huge Flanderization here. It's about those overt depictions of the things and dialogue people would assume indicate your sexuality and it makes the most sense when its used in a work where overt sexual references wouldn't be expected.

Any examples that are really Ho Yay (like Clayface and his not-life-partner from Batman The Animated Series) should be relegated to that trope or perhaps a more serious counterpart to Ambiguously Gay should be created to deal with attempts to portray a relationship in its serious form.

Or the definition could be retooled or at least massaged to be something like "A character who says and does things that a heterosexual character would not do if they were concerned in the least with being mistaken for gay."

"This trope probably deserves to be YMMV, incidentally, considering how much cultural baggage is involved with what's considered "homosexual" beyond the only actual qualifier for homosexuality, being attracted to one's own gender."

You've more or less hit on the trope, though - it's precisely about using that cultural baggage to earmark characters as possessing ambiguous sexuality without initially delving into it.

If this trope is about a character being coded as gay while avoiding any direct mention of sexuality, then it has merit. This was a well-established practice during Hayes Commission era Hollywood, where filmmakers had to circumvent decency standards for many issues, homosexuality being one of them. (I'd point anyone interested to The Celluloid Closet, a great documentary on the subject.)

But, unfortunately, I've seen this crop up on lots of pages where I was all like "Says you!" Very, very subjective, especially in modern works where this is little need to paint someone's sexual orientation vaguely (children's programming excluded).

I'd support a rename to something more exact and pointed.

I think there are three motivations to this trope:

• The celluloid closet thing as you mentioned (Coded Gays).
• The character in question is an pre-adolescent and not aware of their sexuality; yet their family or friends expect them to turn out gay (Baby Gays or Gay Bies).
• Making it a Running Gag (Schrodingers Sexuality).

The first one doesn't happen much anymore, but it still can (See: High School Musical). The latter two happen a LOT (Family Guy, Ugly Betty, or even the titular Ambiguously Gay Duo) And often it may be a mix of two or more.

Do you think they're diverse enough to split? I'm more of the mind that the trope just needs clarification and a scrubbing.

edited 6th Nov '11 9:12:55 PM by Zeta