Rename: The Mario

@ English Ivy: Ah, but just before that it says:

And:

First you have to prove the trope is Not Working (by the letter of the guidelines, this means proving that it has misuse, poor inbounds and unnecessary gushing). After you do that, then you have the privilege of bringing up the whole character-named thing as a theory for why the name is not working.

Not a single rename proposal in TRS history has ever gone this way.

People want to rename because they've got it stuck in their heads that character named tropes are bad. The actual facts of the matter get disregarded because it's easier to make a general rule and stick to it than to examine each case and think about what the individual situation actually is.

Character named trope = Kill it!
But it's not being misused...
Doesn't matter, KILL IT!
But it has good wicks...
Doesn't matter, KILL IT!
But it has good inbounds...
Doesn't matter, KILL IT!

Because discernment is hard. Life is much easier when you can file everything away in a little box and not have to think about it so much. Why think when you can adhere to a regulation? Who cares if the reasoning behind it doesn't apply? It's there! We must obey! Are we not after all slaves to the very system we create, imprisoned within the walls we constructed? What else can we do?

edited 20th Jul '11 2:02:08 PM by Daremo

We KILL IT!

It's less of because it's a character-named trope, but because it does not demonstrate the trope at all.

Character-named tropes just happen to often not demonstrate tropes at all.

edited 20th Jul '11 2:07:48 PM by MangaManiac

Thank you for summing up my thoughts on the matter. I tried to type out something similar, but it just looked like an attack. Well done.

edited 20th Jul '11 2:07:31 PM by Discar

I've never bought into the idea that tropes have to have a title that sums them in one word or phrase. Every word is meaningless until you know what it is, and in the case of a wiki, there's a handy explanation of anything you might not understand embedded in that very word.

How about we stop it with the attempt to turn this thread into a shouting contest to see who can wave the rules around the loudest? I think a crowner would be in order, except I have to go do some research to see if there already is one and if it needs to be reset.

Smoking is bad for you, but it's certainly not illegal. In fact, there's plenty of people who smoke cigarettes and still manage to lead long, healthy lives (despite smelling a little funny).

If I'm going to arrest someone, I have to charge him with a specific crime and gather evidence to prove he's guilty. If I don't have a crime to charge him with, I can't arrest him at all, and if I can't prove he's guilty of it, I certainly can't send him to prison.

We don't arrest people for smoking, and we don't rename tropes just because they're named for a character. If you're going to rename The Mario, identify a specific performance-related problem with it and provide evidence that it's guilty of that problem. So, let's see some of that.

We've had this thread multiple times before and wick checks have consistently shown good, correct usage in the past.

edited 20th Jul '11 2:19:45 PM by troacctid

The last crowner locked at -15 against renaming. So I don't see that this is likely to improve with another go-round, unless we invoke fiat. Despite being an objectively bad name, it seems to be working.

edited 20th Jul '11 2:18:08 PM by Fighteer

The Mario could also be confused for the credits for The Super Mario Bros Super Show.

Another very relevant statistic: In September 2010 the trope had 452 wicks and 1036 inbounds. In April 2011 the trope had 628 wicks and 2104 inbounds. The trope currently has 721 wicks and 2370 inbounds. Usage is growing at a consistent, healthy rate. From everything I can see, this is a very healthy trope.

How? Seems to be really contrived for me.

Also, what should we do with an insistent rename attempt from people who simply don't like or don't "get" names? IMHO, WE KILL IT!

I find your characterization of those opposite you in this debate inaccurate.

There are a lot of logical, or at least seemingly logical, arguments for why Character Named Tropes are bad. Sometimes, bad in ways that fly under the radar of wicks and inbounds.

You are free to say that these arguments do not hold water, but I very much doubt that everyone who disagrees with you on this is all "KILL IT KILL IT lulz who needs reasons".

edited 20th Jul '11 2:41:31 PM by TripleElation

The Mario is a videogame trope, so there is a high likelihood those concerned with its usage will be familiar with the concept implied by the name.

Conversely, if someone looking at a videogame page isn't familiar with The Mario, I'd think their curiosity would cause them to click the link, opening up a whole new trope to investigate. I always contend that that's half the fun of the site, at least for me.

I'm leaning towards not touching it, but if a rename does come up, preserving Mario in the title to give it a little color. I tend to get turned off by boring titles.

I've seen it happen.

Yes, The Yoshi is a recent example off the top of my head (from the same series even). It had misuse and low inbounds, and its rename proposal went along smoothly as a result.

See, the problem here is less that people won't be familiar with Mario and more that Mario has traits other than being the trope, almost all of them being things he's better-known for.

The Yoshi had 33 inbounds.

edited 20th Jul '11 3:07:00 PM by Raso

And for most of those "other traits" there are fitting tropes already. Except the "stock italian", but I might be wrong about that one. So no, I don't see that as grounds for confusion, let alone the kind that would result in "misuse".

And it isn't being misused. If it was, for The Hero, or a plumber who doesn't actually plumb, or a Heroic Mime or whatever, then we could blame the name. But its not.

Right, The Yoshi had demonstrable problems, including both misuse and disuse, so it got an easy rename. The Mario has neither, so it's repeatedly survived rename discussions intact.

And that's a potential problem we can look for in wick checks. Previous wick checks showed that it's a problem that simply hasn't materialized. Of course, you can feel free to check more wicks.

edited 20th Jul '11 3:10:40 PM by troacctid

What I meant was, not a single proposal in TRS history went like, "I think this title might be broken. All right then, let us check misuse!... Ooh, that seems to be an awful lot of misuse! Gee golly, do you think that it might be possible that the fact that this title is a dozen-words-long snowclone of a reference to a deceased Lithuanian pro wrestler might have something to do with it?"

The process might have gone like that, mind you, but certainly not the rhetoric.

One of the reasons of this not ever happening is that the above sort of title guarantees that there will be no misuse. Disuse is another issue, but as far as the guidelines are concerned that's neither here nor there.

edited 20th Jul '11 3:46:55 PM by TripleElation

I agree. It's almost as rare as, "I think this title might be broken. All right then, let us check misuse!... Very little misuse! Gee golly, guess we can move on to something that has a problem in it's practical application. Let's close this and work on something else."

No, that's pretty much how The Yoshi went. It makes things very easy.

No missue=no problem.