The General US Politics Thread

Freedom of Speech.

Whataboutism is fun but really only results in digging out flame war archives.

"We are not your kind of people"...

edited 13th Nov '16 12:12:23 AM by Krieger22

Admittedly, you are probably right - my priorities often include, high on the list, rather destructive priorities and - I suppose - what you would define as revenge.

As to where I was thinking of getting the resources and influence, I was thinking of launching this weaponizing the sense of anger and betrayal my state feels toward the Trump States. I saw - quite acutely - that people wanted some way to strike back at states they feel have aligned with a destructive demagogue, and thought of plans to align with this mood.

edited 13th Nov '16 12:19:19 AM by NickTheSwing

@golgotha: Usually it seems to be the same sort of 'look at those thugs destroying people's property' rhetoric we saw during Ferguson. Trying to argue against it is difficult, since most of the people trying to discredit the protesters have already made up their minds.

Really? Cause I keep seeing an argument more along the lines of "they said Trump would act bitchy if he didn't get his way, and look how they're acting," basically trying to paint a lot of us as hypocrites.

I'd tell them that people are afraid they'll lose their rights, their homes and perhaps even their lives.

@Nick: And the backlash? Again, you'd likely be facing people like Sanders on this issue - I doubt he'd stand for something that would hurt working Americans, and this would.

And that's not even getting into the possibility of the Supreme Court getting involved.

Just how would you even get into a position to influence this, anyway?

edited 13th Nov '16 12:23:05 AM by KarkatTheDalek

In my personal experience, the best way to debate with college-age Trump supporters - who I've mentioned in a previous post to typically possess bizarre contradictory fascinations with Asian cultures - is to maintain an argument that their movement is being tainted by a Vocal Minority of bad eggs who are the ones instilling terror in minorities, and that the best way to get the #Not My President peeps to shut up would be to clamp down on these bad eggs who stinking up the GOP's name. Otherwise, Trump supporters of all ages instantly become defensive with mention of the notion that they're almost mostly white.

edited 13th Nov '16 12:22:30 AM by FluffyMcChicken

^^^There's a lot of that, too.

^I've tried that before with people of similar bent, and most of them either claim the bad eggs are false flags or just people being too oversensitive.

edited 13th Nov '16 12:22:35 AM by RedSavant

With that in mind - again - I am not willing to go forward with an idea that will not work and which will end up struck down even if it did.

I am not overly attached to one plan or course of action.

I fully intend to come up with more than just that.

edited 13th Nov '16 12:31:33 AM by NickTheSwing

Quite frankly given how the rest of the youth demographic voted, focusing on the Rust Belt is more practical. Selling them a sustainable future is going to be a lot easier to do than chatting up someone who gets (and I winced while writing this) triggered by someone handing them an inoffensive flyer.

"Because it won't work" isn't the issue. It shouldn't be done because it hurts people and is morally bankrupt. That's the actual issue we have with your proposal.

...You have realized that, right? This isn't about economics. It's about your idea being nothing more than a revenge plot.

Then it frightens me of thinking what kind of Trump supporters you were speaking to, because even the most fervent Republicans at my college will at least grudgingly admit that the militias driving Confederate flag-flying trucks are making life for law enforcement unnecessarily harder and that it's not their job to be the ones carrying out Trump's policies .

edited 13th Nov '16 12:37:05 AM by FluffyMcChicken

In general positive reinforcement (rewards, incentives, praise, compliments) tend to be more effective at convincing people than negative reinforcement (shaming, disincentives, ostracization). Part of why I have such a problem with callout culture on the left. It's basically a self-enclosing circlejerk that doesn't really convince people half the time, if it's even intended to and not just done with the intent of inflating one's ego via self-righteousness.

Like so, if we wanna persuade the Rust belt to go blue, the common chant from the left that even if they don't hold hateful beliefs, the fact that they're supporting a bigot makes them bigoted isn't going to be as effective in isolation as the promise of more jobs.

It also applies to the phrasing of that first thing itself. "You might not hold racist views yourself, but Trump does, so be the bigger person by refusing to vote for him and validate his beliefs" is probably less likely to turn people off than "a bystander who doesn't believe themself to be racist is nevertheless contributing to racism by supporting one who is".

x7 Maybe create a real life Americasia?

Alternately point out that Trump's statements indicate that he favors isolationist policies that would make it much harder to obtain Asian media and merchandise, and also that his cabinet's support for SOPA and blocking Net Neutrality would make it harder for them to obtain it via pirating too.

@ Irene: Admittedly I cannot understand morality very well except in the sense of my awareness of other peoples' moral codes, or at least in the sense you speak of it.

Admittedly, I am obsessed with Asian culture myself (Particularly stuff centered around Japanese mythology and cute cartoonish stuff), but I voted for Hillary, as Trump will most likely negatively effect the export of Asian media, especially if he goes through with his tariffs, ends Net Neutrality and doesn't defend South Korea and Japan. A lot of those people also think Japanese games won't get censored if they come to the West under Trump's rule. They still will, as it is the localizer's decision, not the government's, and we probably will get less of them due to the racism and xenophobia harming sales (In possible addition to the tariffs).

edited 13th Nov '16 1:02:10 AM by Bat178

So, is there any hope for the future of our nation?

I suppose that's dramatic of me to say, being middle-class and white I won't be the victim of the new leadership's policies. Still, I don't know if I want to live in a nation that seems to be backsliding into homophobia and xenophobia. I also fear what will happen if Trump is as autocratic as some have claimed he will be, will we be seeing restrictions on speech?

I want to help, want to make a difference and change things. But noone cares what I think, and I'm a poor arguer. Hell, getting into arguments with my Dad over Republican economic policies almost always ends with me just giving up. Who knows, maybe he's right.

Just look at it this way, Nick; If it likely will hurt people, it's likely the wrong thing to do. That means it is morally wrong.

That said, this isn't really a topic dedicated to morality. It might be something that you'd need a lot of help understanding, which isn't really the point of this topic. It'd also help you participate better here overall if you understood morality better.

Yes baring Trump trying to cancel elections the GOP is probably going to waste the next four years trying to force social conservative horseshit through. They will likely discredit themselves completely. On the dems side Since Sanders is looking to be the de facto leader of the party at this point they should be embracing progressive populism.

Yes, for fuck's sake, there is hope. This country got through the Civil Rights movement, and came out better for it. We'll get through this. People keep talking all this fucking doom and gloom and tend to forget that this isn't exactly the first damn time we've had trouble. Obsessive negativity, even in depressing times, is not going to fucking help a damn thing. It also gets to be a fucking obnoxious record when people keep posting about how there's no hope.

If you want to help, look up local volunteer opportunities. Look into careers involving politics or something. There's options if you make the effort.

Not sure where you're getting that Sanders is going to be the de facto leader, seeing as there are, in fact, other players in the Democratic party. Plus, I repeat an old saw from the primaries, he hasn't even been an official Democrat for very long. I'm not sure they'd accept him as a leader just now based on that alone.

edited 13th Nov '16 1:09:32 AM by AceofSpades

Trump seems to have walked back most of his autocratic rhetoric, which is nice to see, as such American democracy and the human race (baring global warming) should survive. Sadly the same can't be said for a lot of minorities and LGBT people.

In amusing ideas new, someone on my Facebook suggested that Obama should mind fuck Trump on his wya out, just leave a Kenyan passport on the Oval Office desk, maybe a prayer mat in the residence.

But what sort of volunteering would help? I volunteer at a homeless shelter, I love helping them out, but that doesn't really have much in the way of political effect.

edited 13th Nov '16 1:14:01 AM by Ludlow

That's something you have to look into yourself, Ludlow, I can't give you everything, or even decide what kind of volunteering opportunities will actually be available to you, wherever you are. There's a thing called the internet that you're using right now that can help. Google planned parenthood, or your local or state democratic party. If you don't find anything that satisfies your desire (the national websites for the Democratic party right now haven't changed any of the information on the homepage, so you'll like need to check back later.) then keep looking.

Seriously, this is information you've got to go find yourself. And since there's a lot of services they need, you're going to have to decide what you think you'd be best at when you finally get a list of options. I have literally no information about you or where you live, so asking me what's most useful is incredibly useless.

edited 13th Nov '16 1:20:15 AM by AceofSpades

well at the moment Sanders and Warren are looking like the ones to be tying to take leadership of the left. Also third way dems and the current party leadership have been completely discredited in the eyes of their base.

I noticed the smears that anti-Trump protesters are there because Soros paid them.

It sounds very familiar to me: in Poland, Pi S used the same accusation against KOD protesters (except they used "politicians paid them" instead "Soros paid them").