Merge with The Cavalry/Clean Up/Third Option?: Big Damn Heroes

So, looking through the trope page for the The Cavalry and Big Damn Heroes, the difference seems to be that the Cavalry is when the Hero is saved by other characters in the nick of time, where as Big Damn Heroes is where the Hero saves others in the nick of time.

However, what I've noticed looking through the examples for Big Damn Heroes, is that it's used for both instances of where the Hero is saved and saved by other characters. Hell, it seems to pretty much imply any last-minute "just in the nick of time" rescues by anybody. Hell, there's a ton of examples that fall under The Cavalry and not Big Damn Heroes that are on Big Damn Heroes instead of it.

The Cavalry has 486 wicks and 5962 in bounds, where as Big Damn Heroes has 3408 wicks and 9119 in bounds, so it's clear Big Damn Heroes is much more widespread on the wiki, but Cavalry isn't completely unheard of. So what do you propose what should happen? I'm thinking of either merging the two into one big "In the Nick-Of-Time rescue" trope, or cleaning Big Damn Heroes (And its 3408 wicks) of the examples that apply to The Cavalry isntead. Or soemthing else entirely.

edited 9th Jul '11 1:11:52 PM by RedLunchBox

Oh, whoops, I was one of the people using Big Damn Heroes when it should've been The Cavalry, I think.

It makes sense to me to merge them.

edited 9th Jul '11 1:16:49 PM by BrightBlueInk

Also supporting a merge. There doesn't really seem to be a significant difference between the two tropes.

There's no difference between "The Heroes are in deep shit and someone else saves them" and "Someone else is in deep shit and the heroes save them"? Really? I mean, beyond who is the one in trouble and who is the one doing the saving...

They're two different tropes. Clean them up, but don't merge them.

This

I'm with the Foxxy Mod.

Wait. Big Damn Heroes got redefined to not be limited to "just in time". It's now about saving the day in a big, awesome manner.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:52:09 PM by DragonQuestZ

So that means that they're even less alike. Definitely 'no' to a merge.

Well then, I guess it just needs a clean up, seeing as there still are a lot of wicks/examples (And the entire Playing With A Trope page) that misuse it for The Cavalry.

Also, is it just me or is Big Damn Heroes being cited a lot for instances where characters are just generally heroic in nature, rather than for actual narrative instances where someone's in mortal peril and the aforementioned heroes come charging in to save the day?

It's not just you.

Um, it's not just limited to that. I wrote up the description (after a thread about expanding the trope), but I shouldn't have started it that way if it looks like something narrower.

Um, the definition I took from the article as stands is that the trope is when the big damn heroes save the day, not just 'Bob is a heroic character'. In short, the heroes get to save the day in a big, awesome manner. But if that was a wrong interpretation of the definition, I stand corrected.

edited 12th Sep '11 9:20:35 PM by raisingirl83

No, that is. The mistake was assuming other people had to be in mortal peril.

But is this trope just "these characters are the heroes of the story" or is it "the characters rush to save the day" regardless of whether the day needs saving or not when they get there? Because I see Big Damn Heroes appearing on pages just to denote that there are characters in the story who are heroic, or are the designated heroes of the story.

edited 12th Sep '11 11:48:25 PM by raisingirl83

Well secondary characters can do this, as long as they are clearly good guys.

edited 13th Sep '11 12:14:31 AM by DragonQuestZ

Going by the trope namer, the entire point is about coming to the rescue at the time they are needed the most "Looks like we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?" "Big damn heroes, sir." "Aint we just..."

The Cavalry is a real world term that means any time someone shows up for reinforcements, which makes Big Damn Heroes a subtrope since the damn heroes are reinforcements. But sometimes the cavalry isn't enough or just manage to put a decent enough dent in the threat to give them a renewed fighting chance.

Going by the way they are used in the wiki, there isn't any real difference between the two. If we make the difference between them too complex they will never be used properly. Keeping it right down to the "nick of time rescue" qualifier should work. Off the top of my head, Captain Sulu coming to the rescue in Star Trek VI isn't really a Big Damn Heroes as they alone don't rescue the Enterprise, right in the dialogue it was to give the enemy something else to shoot at.

Only because Shatner fiated that Sulu could not rescue Kirk. Notice that the Torpedo used to win was using technology was setup in the opening scene of the movie on Sulu's ship not the Enterprise, Plot Hole.

Anyways yes Big Damn Heroes needs to pwn The Cavalry just have to be reinforcements, also IMO Big Damn Heroes has to be main characters rescuing X with great and flashy timing from X's point of view. (X could be anything from other main characters to Red Shirts.) The Cavalry does not and The Cavalry can lead to establishing characters Big Damn Heroes should be already established characters (maybe a previous movie even).

edited 13th Sep '11 9:11:37 AM by Raso

^ And the movie was all the better for the change, as it wasn't just Sulu rescuing Kirk. It would have basically cut all the main characters out of the resolution of the space battle, Spock and McCoy rigging the torpedo and Uhura making the suggesting in the first place.

And again, if we make things too complicated the tropes will never be used properly. Truthfully, some of the best moments in various stories is when there is a minor character who doesn't seem to be worthwhile until they get to save the main characters in some fashion.

1. That's irrelevant to the trope whether it worked for the movie. 2. That could still have been worked around. Spock could still have had the idea, but the Excelsior would still have the equipment.

Big Damn Heroes is a timely, heroic rescue.

The Cavalry is the group doing the rescuing when said group is significantly powerful and relatively large (like actual cavalry back in the day).

One is a situation, another is a group identifier.

This. The tropes are not the same thing, though they are related.

I agree that they aren't the same thing. Just clean it up and maybe tweak the descriptions a bit to emphasize the difference.

Agreed. Its a different mood, different uses in story telling, clearly different tropes. Clean up is what's needed.

How's the clean up going by the way? No one's posted here since november. Is it time to lock up?