British Politics Thread

Does Labour know which direction Labour will take now?

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Good point.

I had taken a personal policy of never voting for the incumbent in order to stop them getting too comfortable. Unfortunately I'm seeing next general election having a very small number of choices I can vote for in good conscience.

Maybe I'll finally get around to standing myself, who knows.

Interesting thread.

The issue with Labour is that they've been digging themselves into a hole since the early '90s with the "de-emphasis" on nationalisation and other socialist-esque ideas. This hole was FILLED WITH GOLD (filthy gold) at first, and then eventually everyone wondered why there was no gold left. This was because all their digging had lead them... to Hell!

Erm, no. An actual side-effect of Blair and his cronies sweeping in circa 1994-5 was that middle-classers built up from the Tories' unstable successes often had anti-Tory prerequisites despite Labour not traditionally being a party for their (comparatively) new kind. Blair and co. creating Tory-lite just worked out really well in that regard. Hell, remember the build-up about how Blair himself used to be just another anti-war protesting hippie in the '60s? You know, before he was a lying, money-thief war criminal Karma Houdini with lying, money-thief war criminal Karma Houdini buddies?

I like to open with these sorts of remarks so passing Tories don't assume that just because I'm young and on the left that I don't have any bad regard for Labour's overly long exercises of stupidity and greed. Also relevant, due to AV and smaller parties and already-discussed shizzaz.

Re: Tories are racist? The worst public instance (the worst kind of instances in nations where people watch TV and use the Internet all day) was Cameron's obviously conscious "partial agreement" with extremist groups and their silent-not-violent sympathisers. I mean, yeah, we know he's probably a towering racist who sneaks off to Canary Wharf thrice a week for brief coke sessions with some of his banker friends (not really serious, I just like the mental picture); the thing is, he's not actually an idiot. "Multiculturalism" in our 21st century sense, being the big buzz*

involved, has been beneficial to Tory policy since Thatcher - it's just that big catch-22 for the right-right-wingers in Britain. The Tories (usually very successfully due to riding these sorts of outcries with impunity) have to straight-face, "Yeah, the rich French people that own your water company might need to make a few changes soon, as do those rich Spainards that might own your phone services but don't worry, we're FIGHTING FOR BRITAIN!"

The worst part is that Bobby is correct, we have gone through worse. Granted, this is why using "DEFECIT!" as an excuse for everything, from privatising little droplets for the NHS to kicking crying toddlers in the face, makes little to no sense. Even when the defecit was really nasty-like in the '40s, we(?) still managed to formalise education (which really needs to be brought back in good doses, making smaller "earnings"!) and place the building blocks for our like-it-or-put-up-with-it health system amongst other things post-WW 2.

Oh geez. Hopefully the attempts at humour will signal that I'm not really very good at Polly Tix.

I don't like the man at all, and I was against the Iraq war, but I disagree with the characterisation of Blair as a war criminal. To me, a war criminal orders war crimes to be committed (e.g. deliberate civilian massacres), and as far as I know Blair never ordered anything of the sort.

edited 7th May '11 3:10:53 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Well, he was PM when Britain entered an illegal war, so every death that's related to Britain's participation in the war in Iraq counts as a war crime.

edited 7th May '11 3:11:35 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I still think that's going too far in terms of defining "war crimes". I don't want to derail the thread into the legality or lack thereof of the Iraq war, so it's probably best to drop this.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Well, it is British politics... unless you mean non-British involvement in the war. You could spin it off into it's own thread, though.

Incidentally: in short notes, can I presume the public feeling towards Blair is negative? I did not, in my youth, take an interest in politics, so my thoughts on Blair are mostly related to him looking like a silver-haired pixie.

Depends on who you ask, either he is a war criminal, sleazy and spin loving or a saviour from a conservative government who lead a successful labour party.

Over all I'd guess at the negative being more common than the positive.

By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of paedophilia!

The sad thing is, if it weren't for Iraq and the war on terror in general, Blair's legacy would be the genuine good work he did with Northern Ireland. The man was legitimately great in terms of Irish politics, but that's very far outside the public consciousness because of the aforementioned.

As for the Tories...they have to contend with the fact that a lot of their support are Daily Fail readers throwing around highly derogatory attitudes towards those who aren't white heterosexual and middle class. A lot of senior Tories themselves are such people. Cameron always seems like he's trying to avoid that, but really can't pull it off without completely alienating a huge number of his voters, unfortunately.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

One thing when talking about Tory MP's attitude to minorities has always stuck in my mind:
A high-flying prospective Conservative MP, credited with shaping many of the party's social policies, founded a church that tried to "cure" homosexuals by driving out their "demons" through prayer.

edited 7th May '11 5:44:39 PM by IanExMachina

By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of paedophilia!

That example is rather unclear, since the relationship between her and the church (which was founded 3 years after the paper reports) is vague at best and the claims of attempts to Cure Your Gays come years after it was founded in an, admittedly weak, attempt to cure drug addicts and the like through prayer. Sounds like mission creep on mumbo jumbo to me.

Just saying, you'd think that someone would dig up more supporting evidence if there was a case. Not that there aren't plenty of nasty bigots in politics as a whole.

Ah, I see.

Would it be unwise to say that the majority of his image problems stem from the wars he had Britain get involved in, then?

Yes. Remove that and you have the man who brough peace to Ireland.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

I contend that Blair wouldn't have made as much headway in regards to Northern Ireland if the Downing Street Declaration hadn't happened in 1993.

In my opinion, Blair's long-term impact on Northern Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive; the fact that Sinn Fein and the DUP are largely willing to co-operate is proof of that. Nonetheless, there are members of both communities absolutely despise Tony Blair because they think he sold them out to the other side.

Students tended to hate Blair for the same things they now hate the coalition for. He forced through a bill tripling fees for England and Wales based on a majority he only got because of Labour's Scottish members who most felt had no right to vote on the subject (all Scottish conservatives abstained for this reason)

Also there was the whole thing about ill thought-out anti-terror legislation that mostly got used to harrass photographers and drag pensioners out of Labour conferences for disagreeing with him.

Actually, these kinds of things go on and on. It seems like all governments get worse and worse the longer they're in power.

Governments are like underwear; they need to be changed often and for the same reasons.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

What, we need to change government because otherwise everyone I know will object to my foul stench? Because that's why I change my underwear regularly.

It is true that governments do seem to be prone to getting worse the longer they are in power. I think simply running out of any good ideas (and therefore having to implement the bad ones because doing nothing is unacceptable) is part of the problem. Labour under Brown and the Tories under John Major both ended up that way. Hence the latter's infamous "cones hotline" and attempts to go "Back to Basics".

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

The unspoken end of that sentence is "they get dirty"

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

I figure the problem comes from being too busy with politics to listen to the people you are representing.

Also I first heard that saying as being nappies+

.

@Caissas: You also get one of the most authoritarian premiers in recent British history.

Labour only lost because they had ended up *to the right* of the Lib Dems. However, once elected, the Lib Dems sold everybody out and got in bed with the conservatives, so Brit authoritarianism does not have an easy fix.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Authoritarian/Libertarian is separate from the left-right scale.

Labour became the most authoritarian government we'd had in a long time and if there's anything the British people hate it's jumped-up bureaucrats telling us what we can and can't do when we're not hurting anyone.

Harrassing photographers being one small part of it.

I think Labour was kicked in the nuts specifically for its authoritarianism. Still, they won't get the message.

edited 8th May '11 11:56:49 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Has there ever been a British party that carried a third term and was remembered well for it?

edited 8th May '11 11:58:57 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Worse than that — in some aspects, Labour were more Authoritarian then even the Conservatives*

edited 8th May '11 2:07:53 PM by Greenmantle

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