This thread exists to discuss British politics.
Political issues related to Northern Ireland and the Crown Dependencies (the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) are also considered on-topic here if there's no more appropriate OTC thread for them.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.
As with other OTC threads, off-topic posts may be thumped or edited by the moderators.
- There is a dedicated thread to discuss LGBTQ+ rights in the United Kingdom. That doesn't mean it's always off-topic here, but unless something's directly linked to political events, that's probably a better thread for it.
- There's also a separate thread to talk about your favourite British Prime Ministers.
Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
Short history of the rightward shift of UK politics since the 1970s:
- In the 1970s, Thatcher is regarded as fringe right-wing and too far right to appeal to mainstream politics.
- Thatcher wins the leadership election and the general election, but remains unpopular until the Falklands War enables her to successfully rebrand her image and the party.
- The rebranded Tory Party makes Thatcher's previously 'fringe right' positions the new Tory mainstream. Thatcherism is born.
- In the 1990s, the Labour Right candidate Tory Blair does the same thing to the Labour Party, purging the old left, leaving behind some old centre-left survivors such as Corbyn who become the new left. New Labour (aka Blairism) is born.
- At some point, Thatcher says in an interview that her greatest achievement is Tony Blair and New Labour.
- In 2010, the new Tory prime minister (Cameron) is economically right-wing but socially more left-wing than most Tories. The government is a coalition with the Liberal Democrats who are naturally more left wing both socially and economically than the Conservatives. The coalition does push the Liberal Democrats to the right (economically) and they suffer in the 2015 election.
- In 2015, the Lib Dems collapse; the Tory Party becomes a majority government, but the Far Right UKIP does better than expected. Threatened, the Tories push right to compete with UKIP.
- The 2010 and 2015 governments have an unusually long tenure (2010-16) by a single Home Secretary (Theresa May), infamous for unusually authoritarian policies such as targeting ethnically diverse areas of London with buses displaying the message "In the UK illegally? Go home or face arrest".
- Post-2016 EU Referendum, UKIP collapses, May becomes PM. The Tories now take over UKIP's territory.
- Post-2010: Seeing history repeat, the Labour Right concludes that Labour needs to repeat history as well: move the party right like Blair did to achieve electoral success, thereby (whether intentionally or accidentally) defining 'electability' as 'move right if the Tories move right'.
- 2015 Labour leadership election results in the election of New Labour Left, Jeremy Corbyn. This is the wrong direction for the 'electability' theory.
- Example of rightward shift: Kenneth Clarke. In the 1970s, Thatcher was too right-wing for him to support. By the 1980s, he's holding key ministerial positions and helping Thatcherism succeed. These days, he's sometimes been painted with the 'loony left' brush, implying (whether intentionally or accidentally) that Thatcherism is now too left-wing.
- This is why the Blairites believe Corbyn to be unelectable.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 30th 2018 at 5:53:34 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
NHS unprepared for no-deal Brexit, leaked letter warns
Hopson said the possibility of a no-deal or hard Brexit “with minimal regulatory alignment appears to be growing … For as long as that risk remains it is important that detailed operation planning is undertaken across the NHS.
“Yet trusts tell us that their work in this area is being hampered by the lack of visible and appropriate communication.
“Our members have begun planning … but they have hit a problem, in that some activities are clearly best done at a national level and, in the view of trusts, are best co-ordinated by NHS England and NHS Improvement.
“However there has been no formal communication to trusts from either of your organisations on this issue.”
Hopson warned it would be more “efficient and effective” for ministers and the NHS bodies to work out a national contingency plan for trusts, rather than “expecting trusts to develop contingency plans individually, in a vacuum, and have to reinvent the wheel 229 times”.
Poor national co-ordination, he added, could mean “both stockpiles and shortages of medicines and medical devices”.
Brexit: Fears shell fishermen 'will not survive' no deal
The vast majority catch shellfish, exporting them live to the continent or further afield via EU trade deals.
The Welsh Fishermen's Association (WFA) warned "people would start going out of business" after just four weeks if custom checks and restrictions caused delays.
The UK government said it was "focused on getting the best possible deal".
In 2017, they landed £38.8m worth of produce, with 90% sold directly to EU markets.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 21st 2018 at 3:06:37 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Figure of Hourai
That's a shame, your little history post is gone now. It was an interesting note.
Avatar Source
Yeah, I spotted a typo in it, opened the edit box, and got distracted. Forgot, started a new post, then pasted into the wrong comment box.
It's not my day today.
That, or this a lesson in never having two edit windows open at the same time. I think I could recreate it, however, if people want me to have a go.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 21st 2018 at 3:53:47 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Figure of Hourai
Well, the TL;DR version for anyone that missed it is:
- Thatcher was considered loony right
- When Thatcher was successful, the whole party shifted right. Ken Clarke was considered normal.
- Tony Blair was Labour right, moved right to win election. Old left was kicked out, old centre/centre left remained as new left (e.g. Corbyn)
- Tories moved right again because UKIP.
- Blairites think this means they MUST move right again.
- Ken Clarke is now considered loony left by the Tories despite occupying a position that 40 years ago would've been far right.
Tief girl with eartude
~Wyldchyld Maybe you could trying making a backup of what you have now and asking a mod to see if they can restore the original text?
TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
Unfortunately, we can't restore crashed/edited öosts any more than you can.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I remembered the gist of it. It won't be worded exactly the same, but all the points are there.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
As of today, Prince William has outlived his mother.
Figure of Hourai
And yet, unlike the readers of the Daily Express, I fail to find myself caring in the slightest.
Avatar Source
Well, the first of the political correspondents has come out with an analysis of the published No Deal Brexit Papers. A lot of journalists have been commenting on just how nervous and sweaty Dominic Raab looked as he gave the speech.
I've done something I don't normally do: I've included the Paywalled and Tabloid news. The reason for this is because the initial press reaction seems to be in the same direction from all quarters, and it's not often we see that happen in British political media reporting. The direction, on this occasion, is negative (I'd make the same observation if I saw a positive trend from all quarters, too).
Lewis Goodall (Sky News) appears to have done the most in-depth report for now. I've copied his Twitter thread at the end of the article because his Sky News article is linked to that thread. Hopefully, the other political correspondents will release their own assessments.
At the moment the major news outlets are leading with:
- Free View:
- The BBC: UK's 'no-deal' Brexit plans warn of credit card fees.
- The Evening Standard: Brexit papers: Brits to face higher credit card costs under no-deal.
- The Guardian: No-deal Brexit: Britons in EU could lose access to UK bank accounts.
- Independent: Government tells drug companies to stockpile six weeks' worth of medicine in case of no-deal Brexit.
- ITV News: Card payment hikes and pension fears as Dominic Raab outlines no-deal Brexit contingency plans
- Reuters: No-deal Brexit will bring tangle of red tape, Britain warns companies
- Sky News: Britain under 'no-deal': A far cry from 'less red tape'
- The BBC: UK's 'no-deal' Brexit plans warn of credit card fees
- Paywalled:
- Tabloid:
- Daily Mirror: No Deal Brexit plans REVEALED: All the grimmest small print as Tories issue 25 crucial warnings
- Huffington Post: Analysis: No Deal Brexit Papers Brings Project Fear To Life
- Daily Mail: Government reveals Brexit No Deal Doomsday plans: Ministers admit online shoppers and tourists visiting EU could face millions of pounds in credit card charges... and we could even run out of SPERM
- Daily Mirror: No Deal Brexit plans REVEALED: All the grimmest small print as Tories issue 25 crucial warnings
Lewis Goodall's Twitter thread:
1) Britian would be more bureaucratic. The papers are replete with new regulatory regimes, doubling up of registration and extra processes for British business and consumers. This for example would be the new hurdles for UK importers/exporters to the EU. Currently there are none.
2.) In fact the government is advising businesses that they might want to employ customs brokers and customs warehousing to navigate the extra bureaucracy. Might be possible for big business- small biz will find much more onerous.
3.) Lots of examples where businesses will have to submit the same information (or extra information) to separate regulatory regimes where now there is only one. I.e. for medical products.
4.) warnings over lag times: e.g. organic farmers would lose their access to EU markets on Brexit day as they wouldn't be certified as organic traders. They'd have to wait a minimum of 9 months to apply for a new certificate which would allow them to resume trading.
5.) Recognition that Britain would have establish and have in operation lots of new regulatory bodies ready to go on Brexit day- e.g. this on pediatric medicines Seems a tall order considering we have just over 200 days to go.
6.) In area after area, the government is saying that it would continue to accept EU products/regulatory requirements to make trade and business easier, e.g. here on medical devices. Implicit assumption and invitation is for the EU to do the same. Big hope/gamble.
7.) Extra bureaucracy won't just for expensive goods. Confirmation that Value Consignment Relief will not be extended to goods being brought from EU. I.e. all parcels brought into the UK from the EU under the value of £135 would be subject to VAT. Will be passed on to consumers.
8.) It's clear from these documents that there is no real idea about how no deal could function for Northern Ireland. Each section ends with this proverbial shrug of the shoulders. Essentially- 'let's hope it doesn't happen.'
9.) Some of the details are extraordinary. For example- this section on Danish imported sperm for donation. Turns out, in the event of no deal, we might have to start producing more of our own. Come on boys, do it for Britain.
10.) One area where the government seems very happy to continue to follow EU rules even with no deal is on state aid. Exactly the area Labour most wants to diverge. Funny that.
11.) On banking and financial services (huge slice of the economy), the government would have to create a whole array of new arrangements for very complicated financial mechanisms from scratch. Not clear much work has been done on this so far.
12.) For businesses and consumers, card payment costs would increase.
13.) The City had been thought to be an area relatively resilient to the impact of no deal, with lots of preparations in place to mitigate its effects. Officials appear to disagree, with no deal affecting the ability of the City to keep trading as it has in all manner of areas.
13.) If you export products to the EU, either in a finished state or as part of a supply chain, you better get familiar with v long commodity codes and thick product catalogues. Easy as pie, I'm sure (pie will also have a commodity code- actually several, for every type of pie).
14) essentially no deal would mean no deal for a while followed by a series of piecemeal deals further down the line. Long term, having a looser economic relationship with the EU than Iceland, Canada, S Korea serves neither side.But time it takes to get there would be v damaging.
15) I’ve banged on about this before but once again these docs illustrate an essential brexit truth- if the EU was as powerful and mighty and influential over Britain as the brexiter case claimed it was never going to be easy to leave.
16) remember too this is ONLY A THIRD of the Brexit no deal docs. Many more to come. If these are anything to go by, they won’t be pretty. 218 days to go. Over and out.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:34:59 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I see that the usual suspects (Mail, Telegraph etc.) are also commenting. Anything worth listening to?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I'd suggest the Sky article for now. Goodall seems to have done the most research of all the political correspondents for now. I'd also suggest the Independent article, which covers the Health Minister's advice to the NHS in light of this announcement (where he tells the NHS to stockpile drugs but if any doctors overprescribe their patients ('local stockpiling', he calls it) they will be investigated.
The Mirror has also done a similar round-up to Goodall, but admit they've focussed on the worst of the text. So it might be worth reading that, as it's their estimation that what they've found is as bad as it gets.
Over the next few days, my suggestion may well change.
The request, according to the chief executive of the UK Bioindustry Association, Steve Bates, would be a “massive challenge” for the industry to deliver in less than 200 days.
But Mr Hancock also warned that hospitals, G Ps and community pharmacies should not hoard or stockpile additional drugs “beyond their business” as usual levels.
“There is no need for clinicians to write longer NHS prescriptions,” he said. “Local stockpiling is not necessary and any incidences involving over-ordering medicines will be investigated.”
He continued: “Clinicians should advise patients that the government has plans in place to ensure a continued supply of medicines to patients from the moment we leave the EU. Patients will not need and should not seek to store additional medicines at home.”
1. Britain would be more bureaucratic
Before importing goods from the EU, a business will need to:
- register for an UK Economic Operator Registration and Identification (EORI) number. Businesses do not need to do anything now. There will be further information available later in the year. For those businesses that sign up for the EU Email updates, they will be contacted when this service becomes available
- ensure their contracts and International Terms and Conditions of Service (INCOTERMS) reflect that they are now an importer
- consider how they will submit import declarations, including whether to engage a customs broker, freight forwarder or logistics provider (businesses that want to do this themselves will need to acquire the appropriate software and secure the necessary authorisations from HMRC). Engaging a customs broker or acquiring the appropriate software and authorisations form HMRC will come at a cost
- decide the correct classification and value of their goods and enter this on the customs declaration.
.
2. There will be heavier regulation
Medical devices on the UK market
For a time-limited period, we would continue to recognise the CE Mark on medical devices, which demonstrates their conformity with EU regulatory requirements. During this period, devices would be accepted on the UK market if they meet all EU requirements, which for all but the lowest-risk devices would include certification by EU Notified Bodies.
.
3. Some British firms may not be able to trade at all for some time
Producing and processing organic food if there's no Brexit deal
UK businesses would only be able to export to the EU if they were certified by an organic control body recognised and approved by the EU to operate in the UK. To do this, UK organic control bodies will need to apply to the European Commission for recognition. UK control bodies are not permitted to make these applications until the UK becomes a ‘third country’. Approval can take up to nine months so we are exploring alternative approaches that should speed up this process. As we are retaining EU regulation in UK law, we expect to negotiate an equivalency arrangement with the EU which will allow the free movement of organic goods between the EU and the UK. We will ask the European Commission to discuss these applications in advance of 29 March 2019.
.
4. New regimes and bodies will have to be set up
Paediatric medicines
Human medicines for children are known as paediatric medicines. In a ‘no deal’, there will be a UK system for regulation of paediatric medicines in which the UK will ensure incentives remain to encourage such medicines onto the UK market. We will make provisions for a UK Paediatric Investigation Plan (PIP), including the deferral and/or waiver of the requirement for studies where appropriate as currently provided for in EU legislation. Details of this will be subject to consultation.
.
5. No-deal is impossible for Northern Ireland
The Irish government have indicated they would need to discuss arrangements in the event of no deal with the European Commission and EU Member States. The UK would stand ready in this scenario to engage constructively to meet our commitments and act in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland, recognising the very significant challenges that the lack of a UK-EU legal agreement would pose in this unique and highly sensitive context. It remains, though, the responsibility of the UK government, as the sovereign government in Northern Ireland, to continue preparations for the full range of potential outcomes, including ‘no deal’. As we do, and as decisions are made, we’ll take full account of the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 23rd 2018 at 6:49:42 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Here is an exchange which illustrates really well how, well, uniformed the people behind Brexit truly are:
The expert in this discussion is the guy from three blokes in a pub. And he is savage! I approve!
Project Fear, everybody. Yup, talk about unfounded fears about how badly we're going to fuck ourselves over... 
When can I start calling it "Project Realism"?
Edited by Euodiachloris on Aug 23rd 2018 at 8:54:57 PM
A procrastination in of itself
I thought we decided on Project Reality?
Man this is gonna suck.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
One thing for sure, it is very fitting that if the UK crashes out, it will happen just in time for April fools day.
Figure of Hourai
Well, of all things, I didn't expect to see Alex Salmond starting legal action against the Scottish government because of sexual misconduct allegations.
The stupid, utterly hideous irony of all of this is the main Tories KNOW this is a terrible plan, even on an ideological level. It's not meshing with what they WANT it to be.
But they won't back down out of a) Hubris and b) because they're terrified it'll be the death knell for the party.
But Labour aren't doing ANYTHING to stop it. I just... this is the most astronomical amount of sabotage and is entirely the fault of years of opportunistic finger point by these idiots. And it's all coming home to roost and they cannot find a way to squirm out of it.
JRM and Johnson will reap the cash rewards and either cruise to power in a zealously right wing government or just bail on the country. And I bet the electorate will still think they were in the right.
This is just my personal opinion, but I'm wondering if Boris Johnson is being set up as the stalking horse for the real leadership candidate JRM.
It's that, or May has an agreement to stand down as soon as Brexit is achieved (no stalking horse needed).
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 30th 2018 at 6:00:53 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Fuck the Tories and their political harlequinade. That's what got us into this in the first place. <_<
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The Middle East Eye did a fascinating deep dive into Israel and the Labour anti-semitism scandal. It’s long, but worth a read.
Edited by Iaculus on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:15:59 PM
What's precedent ever done for us?
JRM throws his support behind the "hard land border in Ireland" plan and literally says it should be run the same way it was during The Troubles.
...Well if he wants The Troubles back I guess we know who to blame when the bombings start again.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Remember, Rees-Mogg is Catholic.
... deep cover Sinn Fein agent confirmed?
What's precedent ever done for us?
Duverger's Law says "not unless you radically overhaul the voting system." As long as you run your elections in separate first-past-the-post constituencies, you're gonna have parties sticking together that have no agreement whatsoever on policy.
Edited by Ramidel on Aug 20th 2018 at 5:59:06 AM