Split?: Added Alliterative Appeal

Somebody proposed a YKTTW for alliteration. Now I realize: What exactly is Added Alliterative Appeal, anyway?

• On one hand, we have an ordinary index filled with alliterative trope titles.

• On the other, we have Everythings Better With Alliteration*
  ^{and it's safe to assume that virtually all wicks are of this context}
  .

Either of these are well and good by itself — but the article can only be one or the other. We can't have one article doing both.

edited 8th Apr '11 10:24:15 PM by Stratadrake

I agree with splitting off the title index with an actual page about alliteration. We just need to figure out which gets the main name, and what the new name would be.

Split seems like a good idea.

It's probably safe to assume that 90% of the wicks are Everythings Better With Alliteration, meaning it would be less work to split the index portion off into a separate title, while keeping Added Alliterative Appeal referring to alliteration in general.

Why would we split an index? I just don't get that. Added Alliterative Appeal is just an index for trope titles on the wiki that are alliterative; I don't see much point to splitting that.

As far as tropes about alliteration go, we have a few tropes about specific things being alliterative, including names and lists, in addition to a few articles in YKTTW looking to catolog other alliterative things such as couples.

This YKTTW we're talking about doesn't so much appear as a specific trope involving anything related to alliteration but more of a Useful Note providing the definition for alliteration. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's not much reason to have any page splits for this. Maybe move the definition for alliteration from the description for Added Alliterative Appeal to the new Useful Notes page (though I'd be against it, seeing that some people adding tropes to that index don't seem to fully understand what alliteration is), but that would be it.

If the purpose is to replace wicks for Added Alliterative Appeal that have nothing to do with indexing with a different page for all-purpose alliteration though, I'd only recommend that the new page not have an examples list because unless it's going to refer to a specific usage or alliteration or alliteration used in a single context, I feel that this new page would be far too general.

edited 9th Apr '11 10:09:45 AM by SeanMurrayI

Works have alliteration at points. So examples on the trope page would be limited to that.

But yeah, it would be easier just to rename the index, as all the links for that would change.

But works using alliteration need to be using it in a specific way or for a given purpose for it to be much of a significant trope; otherwise, it's a bit too much like adding examples to Happy Ending.

You mean like with Everything's Better With Indexes?

At the same time, Added Alliterative Appeal's value as an index is Just for Fun only, because the tropes it contains have absolutely nothing to do with alliteration — or for that matter, each other.

edited 9th Apr '11 1:43:09 PM by Stratadrake

Yeah, like Everything's Better With Indexes. Added Alliterative Appeal's intended purpose is to index trope titles with a specific naming convention.

If we'd want to remove/change/split/whatever any of that page's wicks that refer to any old alliteration that isn't already covered by the existing tropes about specific forms of alliteration, I'd be fine with creating a general page about alliteration; I just think that the page itself should not have any examples because it would be too broad. A page like what's being suggested here should be intended for use as a pothole for any old thing that's alliterative that editors would want to highlight with a blue link.

edited 9th Apr '11 2:02:08 PM by SeanMurrayI

Well set some kind of minimum. Two words I say isn't enough even for trope titles. But three words or more, and it has to be noted on the page, would be a good way to eliminate something that's just coincidentally alliterative.

^ I'd actually suggest going a bit further and stretch it to a full monologue/rant, anything like the page quote already at the top of Added Alliterative Appeal, basically.

Alliterative Speech... or Address, if you'd prefer the one possible synonym for "speech" that I can find that begins with the letter A.

edited 9th Apr '11 2:11:52 PM by SeanMurrayI

Sean Murray I has mentioned alliteration as a Useful Note. I was actually thinking of launching it as a trope. I do think this fits, since alliteration itself is a literary device consciously and deliberately employed by writers.

^ In that regard, so are similes, gerunds, onomatopoeia. However, those devices are too general and non-specific to allow examples on pages defining those terms because they are very common things found in language. I don't see anything wrong with a page describing alliteration in general, but if it's going to be about the general use of alliteration then it would be best for such a page to only define what alliteration is and allow for potholing wherever it may be relevant, much like Plot.

If this is going to be a trope about alliteration with examples, it should be about alliteration being used in a specific way or for a specific purpose.

edited 9th Apr '11 5:57:59 PM by SeanMurrayI

What he said. Useful Notes.Alliteration would be a good idea. As would perhaps a page on work titles that are alliterative. Possibly even a trope for long alliterative speeches like V's.

Again, there is also the matter that the page is somewhat entrenched — appx. 600 in both wicks and inbounds. I'm willing to risk that the vast majority of AAA wicks are in the vein of Everythings Better With Alliteration, so if we're going to re-purpose AAA as an index of alliterative trope titles only, we'll also be looking at a significant cleanup effort.

From a cleanup standpoint it's easier to take the inverse route and split off the index portion while retaining AAA for what everybody already uses it for.

And yes, AAA within a work has to be a recurring/consistent thing to count as tropable. Donkey Kong Country wouldn't be AAA if only one or two levels had alliterative names — but when every level from Angry Anteaters to Zany Zebras has an alliterative name, it's obviously not coincidental.

edited 9th Apr '11 6:26:16 PM by Stratadrake

^So, like, repurpose Added Alliterative Appeal as a generalized page about alliteration (ideally, example free, if this is the case) and move the tropes indexed to some place else? (Alliterative... Article... Appellations, maybe?)

EDIT: You tweaked your post a bit while I was typing up mine, eh? Anyway, yeah, I get the gist of what you're suggesting. I wouldn't oppose that.

edited 9th Apr '11 6:28:26 PM by SeanMurrayI

It's one of the options, yes. But it's a mite difficult to devise a workable alliteration....

edited 9th Apr '11 6:27:42 PM by Stratadrake

I certainly agree that we don't need to list examples of general alliteration. It might, however, still work as a Super-Trope, and any examples can be listed in its subtropes.

Some choices are:

1. Re-purpose Added Alliterative Appeal to be a general description of alliteration and its uses (rename as well?), (and move the alliterative trope names somewhere else, of course).

2. Re-purpose Added Alliterative Appeal to be about "tropable" instances of alliteration, as per Stratadake. Have the general description at Alliteration or UsefulNotes.Alliteration.

3. Let Added Alliterative Appeal be. Have the general description at Alliteration or UsefulNotes.Alliteration.

I think 2 is the best, provided we can find some examples for it. If we did that one then going with a Useful Note for the general page is probably better (otherwise we would have two tropes: "Alliteration", and "Alliteration, but Notable", which is rather redundant), and Added Alliterative Appeal would have Alliterative Name, etc., as subtropes.

Sorry. I really need to get some sleep for tomorrow.

Bumping. Crowner to attach, as well.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/PageAction/AddedAlliterativeAppeal

Isn't the "index route" the same exact thing as "leaving the page as is"?

^^ That would actually be the good variety of The Same But More he was talking about. Again, "all-purpose general use of alliteration" is no more a trope than "all-purpose general use of adjectives, verbs, or nouns."

Unless a specific use of alliteration (like Alliterative Appellation) can be found to focus on, you're going to be left with a page like Plot or The Protagonist.

edited 13th Jun '11 8:07:48 AM by SeanMurrayI

"Index Route" involves splitting off a new trope to catch all those alliterations. I think that would require way too much work, but that's what it is.

Crowner question:

If The Page Cannot Be Both message in the crowner description is true, why is "Leave As Is" an option on the crowner?

Either the message or that option needs to go.

<Mod Hat ON>

I've taken that line out, since there's no reason it can't be both a trope and an index. We have quite a few pages that are both trope and index.

<Mod Hat OFF>

edited 13th Jun '11 10:18:44 AM by Madrugada

In that case, this really should be a single prop "Change or No Change" crowner first, so as not to throw off the vote ratios (since changing a page is supposed to require at least a 2:1 majority.)

edited 13th Jun '11 10:37:49 AM by Meeble