Full Metal Alchemist General

I'm of the opinion that Brotherhood is superior to the 2003 anime, if only because it's closer to the manga, and I felt the manga was massively superior to the 2003 anime.

I love manga and Brotherhood (my favorite piece of fiction of all time) because the characters are smart enough to Earn Your Happy Ending. I will never forget the moral at the end.

edited 7th Apr '17 10:21:53 AM by RAlexa21th

Nothing can be gained without sacrificing something. There is no such thing as a easy lesson in life.

I like that after everything they went through, the Brothers actually accomplished their goals. I felt they earned it.

With 2003 I didn't get that same feeling. I still like it (don't even hate Shamballa) but it feels like a lot of their efforts were for nothing.

Edit: I also feel the ending of Brotherhood, with Al saying they'd give back more than they took answers the point brought up about Equivalent Exchange in the 2003 series (you don't always get back as much as you took in the first place).

edited 7th Apr '17 10:47:54 AM by HandsomeRob

The thing is, I don't feel that everyone deserved a happy ending. Al deserved to recover his body, yes. But I don't think that Mustang should have recovered his eyesight. Specially not after so much preaching about how using a Philosopher's Stone is a bad thing (which I never understood, by the way; Envy said that refusing to use one would be like refusing to burn a log just because it was a tree before, and I agree with him). So seeing Philosopher's Stones used so casually by the alleged heroes a second later came out quite jarring. And if I recall correctly, Olivier said at some point that they would have to pay for their war crimes someday, but that never happened. The pseudo-fascist regime is left intact at the end. Why did Scar need a redemption arc but not those responsible of genocide? Scar's crimes aren't comparable to the massacre at Ishbal. Also, why was Pride forgiven? He was an embodiment of sin, there wasn't anything human about him. Pride is also viewed often as the worst of the seven deadly sins. I strongly suspected that he would be forgiven, however, since he happened to look like a child. But it felt too politically correct to leave him alive just because of that.

But I suppose all this boils down indeed at cynicism against idealism. I like a happy ending in comedies or light-hearted stories, but in this case I don't think such overtly happy ending was warranted.

Pride is dead. Selim is what remains of him.

The ending is what people deserve vs what makes the world better. Bradley does peacefully, and heralded as a martyr by the same guy who overthrows him, because it helps stabilize the country. No one deserve redemption, simply because if they have it, they've already earned it.

The only people who hesitates using the Philosopher's Stones are Ed and Al, and they only hesitate to use it in order to return their old bodies. Ed uses Envy's Stone to get out of Gluttony. Al uses it to fight. Marcoh uses it to heal people.

I love the manga because it shows that even at the darkest of times you can earn yourself a happy ending. It's a message that I need the most.

edited 7th Apr '17 11:22:42 AM by RAlexa21th

Yeah not a huge fan of 2003. It's fine for what it is but the manga is just a more enjoyable story in my opinion.

I personally rate 2003 a 9.4 and Brotherhood a 9.8

I adore them both, but for me they both have completely different appeals

edited 7th Apr '17 12:15:00 PM by LinkToTheFuture

Was Selim a real boy? Then I must have forgotten that. I recall he looked always as a small boy, appearing in photos with the same body over the years? I thought that only Bradley was a real human whom they experimented upon.

There's nothing wrong about preferring a happy ending. And anyway, I don't think that the original series' ending is so utterly dark. As I said, it's more of a Bittersweet Ending. The message is that the world is imperfect, that no one is guaranteed a happy ending just because they have good intentions, and that you may receive less than you gave. BUT you may as well receive more (Edward comments on this at the end, when he realizes that being still alive is more than what he expected). Regardless of the final outcome, the journey is always worth it, and experience and growth were what they gained through equivalent exchange (either Hohenheim or Mustang commented on this, can't remember exactly who). I find that an uplifting, honest message. In a sense, it summarizes nicely the meaning of real-world alchemy: the quest for the Philosopher's Stone was ultimately a failure (I'm pretty sure that no one ever transmuted lead into gold), but the true goal of alchemists was that of spiritual growth during the process, the actual gold-transmutation being just a metaphor.

I think 2003 is the one that doesn't warrant the ending. It should have been a complete downer if not for the villains' utter stupidity (oh no we are ACTUALLY having the upper hand? guys let's Press X to Die ASAP) and convoluted real world bullshit. Even the moral is that you can get happiness without earning it.

Finished vol 14

Ling: If you want to shoot the general, shoot the horse first.

Ed: If you want to shoot the general, shoot the general.

Not sure what Ed hopes to accomplish here. He clearly sees Father transmuting without forming a circle, and even if he captures Father with cable, Envy and Gluttony would've squashed the good guys or break Father free.

edited 7th Apr '17 12:42:57 PM by RAlexa21th

I always liked this part. Ling is thinking more strategically; he gets that you can't just jump ahead, that you have to go step by step and be methodical about it. You can't just shoot the general because if he's smart, he's gonna have a million shields in place to stop you from getting to him.

Ed is trying to get the job done quick. While it might seem that he's being kinda dumb, you could say he's saying SHOOT THE GENERAL because it's the fastest way to bring things to an end. He's right there. Don't waste time with other shit. Just take him out and be done with it.

Of course, Ed's strategy is a lot less viable in the situation they were in, but still I can see his point...plus it's funny.

edited 7th Apr '17 1:51:58 PM by HandsomeRob

Brotherhood's has its good share of stupidity, mind you, and not just at the ending. Trading Alchemy for a whole person was a complete asspull. If that was feasible from the start, why didn't Ed do it years ago? If the explanation is that he had never thought about it before, then that's not realistic. He had been studying for years the means to bring his brother back. Why precisely then, after a long, tiring fight, comes this sudden revelation? Contrived Coincidence, very much. Not to say that the whole need to trade alchemy smells of forced drama, from the moment that the Philosopher's Stone is right at hand. The fact that the brothers had already used it before, makes the refusal to use it now even more stupid. It makes Ed to look either as an idiot or a jerk, who doesn't care about his brother enough to let aside his preachy morality for a moment.

Besides, why is Truth behaving in such a moralistic way all of a sudden, rewarding Ed for his humility and punishing Father for his hubris, when moments ago he was an amoral entity, taking Mustang's eyesight even if he didn't want to make that transmutation?

And no matter how you look at it, the fact that Scar is given a redemption arc, and the suggestion that the Ishbalies are the ones who should WORK to change things and assimilate, while Mustang and the others are left in peace, is downright racist. No, this isn't a case of Earn your Happy Ending. These people didn't deserve that happy ending, let alone use Stones made up of people they helped to exterminate to cure themselves.

And how is the real-world parallel any more convoluted than the Whole Truth being on the other side? The real-world parallel was long hinted at midway through the series. Amestris is ruled by a Führer and looks pretty much like early 20th century Europe, for God's sake. It wasn't so difficult to see it coming.

edited 7th Apr '17 1:56:39 PM by Airin

Yes, the military regime still exists when the credits roll. But that's because Mustang isn't in charge yet. Recall that the ultimate goal of his plan is "become Fuhrer, change the system, and surrender myself to be tried and punished for my actions in the war." What we see at the end isn't the status quo, but rather the first steps towards reform.

As for why Scar deserves redemption and not the brass who ordered the genocide? Scar still has some humanity in him to redeem. His crimes were committed out of delusion and a desire for vengeance, and he loathes himself for killing Winry's parents. That's why he just stands there and allows her to take aim.

The higher ups don't get redemption because they threw away their humanity in exchange for Father's promise of immortality. The actual soldiers like Mustang, Hughes, Armstrong, and Hawkeye earn their redemption because they acted out of fear, not greed, and have spent every moment since the war ended working towards some measure of atonement.

The brothers refuse to use the Philosopher's Stones to reform their bodies because it is their fault they are in that state. They don't want to use the Stone unless they are in mortal danger and have no way out.

Trading body parts for alchemical powers has always been a part of the series. In fact, it is the first exchange we see in the manga/2003.

Fantasy Counterpart Culture is not Alternate Universe. Truth shows up 1/4 through the manga (2nd episode of Brotherhood). It is established as a part of the series. The Alternate Universe is introduced at episode 49 out of 51 in order for Ed to not die.

edited 7th Apr '17 2:29:37 PM by RAlexa21th

Ed not realizing that he had a way to restore Al's body all along til the very end is very much a case of character development, its the whole a lesson without pain is meaningless thing, Ed needed the journey to realize what was in front of him the whole time.

I figured no one thought of trading alchemy because everyone relies on it so much. Thus it never occurred to them.

That's a way to look at it, but much of this looks like post-hoc rationalization. The thing is, we never see Mustang atoning for his crimes. We're left to wonder if he ever changed the regime, but the only thing we see is that the regime stays the same, and this is treated in the context of a happy ending. I wouldn't have a problem with this if the ending was aiming for a more somber tone, but the way it's delivered it makes it seem as if everything was alright. The show is far too apologetic towards the regime, everything is brushed off with the excuse that "the homunculi made me do it". The original FMA, on the other hand, recognizes that, no matter how much Dante and the homunculi helped to mess things up, the true evil comes in the end from human's very nature. The Führer was an homunculus, yes, but the real problem is the regime itself, from top to bottom. No excuse.

The problem with Scar is that he doesn't need a redemption arc because he didn't do anything even remotely comparable to the massacre. He went only after military targets, and the death of the Rockbells was practically accidental. The fact that this murder of two persons is equated with the massacre of his people at one point is wrong, simply wrong. Yet Scar is portrayed as a villain, who only turns hero after a Heel-Face Turn. Which means he has to assimilate with the Amestrians in order to be part of the "heroes" (that is, become submissive towards those who made all the harm). Mustang's team doesn't receive this treatment: they're portrayed as good-guys from the beginning to the end.

I much prefer his arc in 2003 because of this. He went down unredeemed and unrepentant. And no need to be so. The Amestrians had more than earned their downfall. And Ed, even though would rather not see anyone dying, has the maturity to accept that some moral problems are just too complex to be resolved with simplistic solutions. That Scar had chosen to die in his own terms, and he respects that. I couldn't stand his self-righteous preaching in Brotherhood, as if he was in a position to teach Scar a lesson.

Alternate real-world is NOT introduced in episode 49. The first time we see the images from beyond the gate, they're real-world images, and this happens at the point the series diverge, more or less at the middle. They flash very fast, but the USA flag is particularly visible. Possibly missed by many in their first watch of the series, but a brilliantly subtle hint to get during a rewatch.

edited 7th Apr '17 2:54:00 PM by Airin

What the hell are you talking about.

edited 7th Apr '17 2:50:58 PM by RAlexa21th

I prefer 2003 overall, because it follows up on the dark elements instead of blaming it all on an alien controlling the government. Yet it has ita own problems. For one, the fascist regime is still in place in this one too. The Ishbalans go from being blamed by implication, to being passive pawns in need of rescuing by their oppressors.

I could have accepted the idea of our world beyond the gate, despite the plausibility problems, if it weren't for pointlessly and gratuitously appropriating every real-world war when the show had plenty of its own. I wondered myself how the energy to transmute might be explained but this was the worst way imaginable.

Arakawa was great at building a world and arranging things consistently, but so much of the thematics is based on arbitrary distinctions. Clever but not meaningful. I just wish she worked with someone better at character drama.

As a whole I prefer Brotherhood, but there are a few things that bugged me: sometimes, it praises characters that don't deserve it. Kimblee in particular gets a vibe of Villainous Valor and maybe a little Evil Is Cool, so we're supposed to respect him in a bizarre sense. He is evil to the core, but at least he admits it and has a code, so we're supposed to admire that. He is better than the corrupt generals. But I couldn't muster it - I just hated him.

Also, during the uprising, it praises Mustang's non-lethal approach while simultaneously showing Briggs be badass as they use more pragmatic and lethal tactics. Pick one, or let the audience decide. Also I hate Social Darwinism, so Olivia Armstrong was out the door quickly.

But these aren't major issues for me.

edited 14th Apr '17 7:20:04 PM by SilentColossus

Even good people can have different values and morals.

Sure. Social Darwinists can't be good people because simply due to its nature. I'd be more tolerant of Briggs violent tactics during the uprising if it showed the positives and negatives of both, rather than admiring both without comment. Pick one, or let the audience decide. You can't beat "respect both" into people's heads.

edited 14th Apr '17 7:27:56 PM by SilentColossus

That is simply wrong, especially in competitions and warzone.

I am perfectly able to respect both.

edited 14th Apr '17 7:28:58 PM by RAlexa21th

Is it? Competitions are typically not fatal, so it doesn't really apply there. For war zones, it doesn't apply either. If the soldier cannot perform their role, they shouldn't be in a combat zone in the first place - their lack of skill might get other people killed as well, not just themselves, and they might have other skills to be used elsewhere. If not, why are they there? "Weak soldiers die" doesn't work, because the military fights as a unit, and failure can cause everything to fuck up - not just for the "weak ones".

Why do you respect both? One tactics kills people, for no reason, because the other non-fatal tactic is working fine for Mustang. If it wasn't working fine for Mustang, Briggs would have a point. And you respect both; that is your opinion. My problem is the show demands you respect both.

edited 14th Apr '17 7:41:13 PM by SilentColossus

Social Darwinism is not always fatal. The word "survive" has many meanings. Being able to work with others is also a quality for "fitness" too.

Uh, Mustang is able to use non-lethal tactics because the Briggs troops distract the bulk of Central Forces, and it's not Mustang's platoon who initially captures the Central Command and wears down Father.

edited 14th Apr '17 7:44:58 PM by RAlexa21th