Clean up or separate: Panty Shot

Okay, it's fanservice, I get it. However, a lot of the examples aren't really the fanservice kind, and are more the cutesy Little Lulu type. Should there be a separate section about non-fanservice examples?

I'd be happy to reorganize the examples section if you can provide a working term for "non-fanservice pantyshot." You never know, there may actually be a sub-trope in this.

edited 26th Jan '11 6:24:52 PM by midnight68

That'd be more I See London territory; underwear revealed for comedy, rather than titillation. As the two stand, there's a bit of drift between the two, both could use tighter definitions and example clean ups.

Agreeing with Daremo.

Defining the trope is going to be a little difficult. For example, Uran from Astro Boy is correctly described as the trope maker in Japanese animation, but clearly, no sexual content was implied. It's also questionable whether the panty shots were intended for comic effect; it was more or less a visual convention of the period, ie the way that cartoonists depicted young girls at that time. This naturally prompts the question: which category does the actual Trope Maker fall under? Panty shots were integral to Uran's character design, but they weren't Fanservice, ISeeLondon or FetishFuel.

As mentioned in the article, panty shots weren't employed for comedy or fanservice until the late sixties. That started with Nagai's Harenchi Gakuen (1968) and rapidly spread throughout all forms of Japanese popular culture (including TV and cinema). Even then, it was used more as mildly ecchi humor than as true Fanservice (the artwork was still very cartoony and child-oriented at the time). Panchira only really became Fetish Fuel during the 80s, when Hentai emerged as a specific genre. The problem is, all of these overlap to some degree. There's no clear division between Tezuka's Uran (incidental panty shot), Fujio's Shizuka (humorous panty shot), and Nagai's Cutie Honey (ecchi panty shot).

Believe it or not, two Japanese writers actually attempted to sort panty shots into broad categories (I know it sounds ridiculous, but panchira is is a big part of their popular culture). Akihara and Takekuma approached it from a developmental perspective, describing how the convention evolved from the 1950s up to the late 90s. Speaking briefly, they divided the evolution up by decades, showing that panty shots became increasingly more fetishized (and detailed) as Japan relaxed its sexual taboos.

Although the book mentioned above was definitely tongue-in-cheek, it still provides a good framework to draw upon. I would suggest following a similar chronology here (at least in the Anime/Manga section) starting with Astro Boy and ending with more recent series (such as Kodomo No Jikan or Moetan). The examples currently employed in the article follow no particular pattern, if we place them in chronological order, we'll at least have an organized structure we can work with.

edited 27th Jan '11 8:58:56 PM by midnight68

Good work there, impressive research.

I'm not sure one page can cover all possibilities. Given that we already have pages for comedy and fanservice, a page for the older innocent style and a chronological Useful Notes page (Panties Through The Ages?) might both be called for.

I could go with that. Are you suggesting that we transfer the majority of the examples to Useful Notes page? We could leave the Trope Makers on Panty Shot and place a link to Panties Through The Ages for anyone who wants to read a more detailed history.

edited 27th Jan '11 11:49:25 PM by midnight68

No, the older examples are going to a different old school trope, and we're making a useful notes about how the tropes have evolved from one to another.

Perhaps the title Old School Panties might be suitable for the "innocent style" trope, referring to characters like Little Lulu, Uran, Little Audrey etc.

edited 28th Jan '11 12:00:55 AM by midnight68

Or just Innocent Panties. Most people aren't going to know what Old School means in this context after all.

Innocent might work. I hope I don't come off as creepy or anything for starting this topic.

No, you don't. I think it's just part of a different era before it occurred to the average person that there was anything sexual about children. Western animation used to do it to little girls as well with little white knickers sticking out from under their dresses to make them look younger. It was really common with toddler characters. Trixie◊ from Hi And Lois is a good example of this. There's nothing sexual about that.

Kikis Delivery Service would fit under Innocent Panties. They're very covering bloomers, and it's completely un-sexualized. It's more to show the realistic blowing of her dress when she flies than anything else.

Does anybody know what happened to the troper tales for this article?

My guess is the same thing that happens to a lot of troper tales for sex/fetish-related tropes: it got deleted for being too creepy.

Why in the hell would we need a Tropers Tales for a Panty Shot? .... Can I Face Palm yet?

Butting in late to say: Separation sounds like a great idea, as a great many of the Western Animation examples, which nobody seems to have touched on, seem to fall more under the "innocent" label. If panties are being shown in western cartoons and it's not I See London or a parody of anime, it tends to just be a quick swish as a hazard of drawing an active character in a skirt. An avoidable hazard (Magic Skirt or better camera angles) but a hazard nonetheless. The amount of creepy detail that goes into some of the entries could use some axing, too.

because tropers have tales concerning panty shots. in fact, dozens of them do. do i need to draw a diagram for you?

edited 4th Feb '11 4:35:33 AM by depaderico

As far as I know, there have never been troper tales for panty shot.

I've made a start on the Innocent Panties article, will add a Western Animation section tomorrow. Please fell free to rewrite and contribute examples, and any suggestions on which index(es) to add this to would be appreciated. Also, please visit Innocent Panties discussion page to work out finer details (for example, how Innocent Panties relates to or differs from similar tropes).

edited 5th Feb '11 6:54:35 AM by midnight68

Never mind this post, delete it if you can, please.

edited 10th Feb '11 7:06:41 AM by nashimi

Cool then. Good work, guys.

I'm glad the troper tales page is gone for panty shot. It was getting a bit creepy when people were practically shouting to the heavens because they accidentally saw a girl's underpants.

I remember reading the words "middle school" somewhere before flagging the article.

Regarding Troper Tales for Panty Shot: is there an archive for the deleted TT? While I agree that they don't belong on this site, I would like to transfer them to the Fetish Fuel Wiki.

edited 13th Feb '11 5:00:48 PM by midnight68

At the moment, the Troper Tales for Panty Shot is still in the Google cache.