Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Sort of. I think the most we see of any family other than Buffy's is Willow's mom and Xander's... uncle? Unless that was actually future Xander and I'm just confusing the two.

Xander's parents did show up in the episode where he leaves Anya at the altar.

Ah, alright. Been a while. Wasn't sure if we saw them or not.

We did, didn't we? Personally, I try to block that episode from memory. One of the most depressing and frustrating episodes I've ever seen.

Yeah, that was a bad one...a lot of character development sacrificed to Whedon’s compulsion to make characters as miserable and pathetic as possible.

I wonder how many fans make like SPN-fans and just consider the Season 5 finale to be the true end of Buffy. I mean, I know Once More With Feeling exists but the show takes so many bad writing turns in the later seasons between Spuffy drama, killing off Tara, that one episode where Buffy gets kicked out of her own house, Xander leaving Anya at the altar, Dark Willow (although I kind of like this one), killing off Anya, the Potentials, and Spike trying to rape Buffy.

There were still some great moments in the show but...man, there's a lot of crap. For the record, I just finished the series months ago so I'm sure these conversations have been had numerous times, but I really feel like the show peaked in its fifth season. Heck, I even like season 4 more than the later ones (except Riley because he sucks).

I more or less see it that way. S6 and S7 aren't good, Once More With Feeling aside.

I loved Season 6. It helps that that's the first season I saw. I just think it really works well as a metaphor, miserable though it all might be. I can totally understand not enjoying watching all your favourite characters be put through the wringer and all their previous Character Development come to naught, but I tended to see that as stumble-and-get-back-up moment — about how your adulthood doesn't have to be defined by your failures. The payoff of Xander redeeming Willow and the deliberate shutting-down of entitled assholes like Warren, too, I loved that.

Season 7, though, did come off as unfocused to me. I liked that one scene with the First in the basement with Spike, cycling through all the previous Big Bads, but it never really lived up to that promise. The soapier elements dragged and the one-off monsters felt kind of weak compared to earlier seasons.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 7th 2019 at 12:41:43 PM

I’ve actually not watched a large amount of season 6, specifically because of all the backlash’s I’ve heard about it and how the bits I have seen have made me feel.

Both Season 6 and Season 7 have a problem where they are really good up until a certain point...and then it steadily goes down for the rest of the season.

In Season 6, the season is great up until the "Smashed"/"Wrecked" two-parter. That's when the show really leaned into the whole "magic is drugs" thing and also Buffy's relationship with Spike became abusive on both sides, resulting on the infamous "near rape" scene.

In Season 7, the show resets itself, so it's good again and even great at times (I love "Selfless" and "Conversations with Dead People," two of my favorite episodes), but the quality just slowly goes down. There's no real single episode where it switches, it just...well, it turns into "Buffy lecturing the potentials about stuff, Buffy being mean to her friends about stuff, random things happen that don't make sense, Buffy is mean so her friends kick her out of her own house, and so on."

There are still good episodes, even towards the end of Season 7 (god, I love "Storyteller" — just watch some clips and you'll get it — and "Dirty Girls" is a great reintroduction of Faith and really ups the ante with the villain), but the show only really gets back on it's feet when it's the series finale, "Chosen."

Personally, I think Chosen is...okay. It's rushed and doesn't really encapsulate the great things about the show to me. The strongest scene in it is between Angel and Buffy, in my opinion. It's the only relationship that truly feels like it gives some finality to who Buffy is.

Her cookie dough monologue is not just about her relationship with Angel, but about how it's okay for her to not have all the answers. Stuff like THAT makes Buffy great. In contrast, the whole "What should we do tomorrow" scene between the Scooby Gang is cute but way too tongue and cheek.

Also, Anya's death was stupid, Spike's death is undercut by him returning in Angel Season 5 (which I still have yet to finish), and the Potentials becoming these badass true Slayers just feels unearned to me. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about Buffy giving a whole bunch of random women Slayer powers. It's supposed to be empowering, but it comes off as irresponsible to me.

Edited by deuteragonist on Jun 9th 2019 at 8:11:15 AM

It WAS irresponsible, and the plot of one the Season 5 Angel episodes deals directly with that. It also comes up repeatedly in the comics, and forms most of the plotlines for Buffy Season 8 and some of Angel Season 9.

Are those comics even worth reading? I've heard different things.

Depends on the seasons, and personal tastes. When it is good, like the Wonderland arc and the Angel and Faith seasons, it is up there with some of the best episodes for world building and emotional beats. When it is off, it meanders around Buffy season 6 part B and Angel season 4 when it focuses on Jasmine. (Ick, basically).

The issue is that Buffy season 8 is probably the worst overall, and Angel: After the Fall is bottom 3 or so depending on personal taste. Because those are the direct continuations of the 2 shows, most people read a volume or three, decide its all crap, and pretend the comics do not exist.

I think they are decent enough and worthy successors, but I have lost much of the Rose tint for the two shows over the years; owing to parts that have not aged well and taking issue with other parts of Whedon's work that casts a pall for gestating issues as early as Buffy. As a result, I have less inclination to hold up the shows on the kind of pedestal that inclines others to crap on them simply for not being Whedon/doing things differently.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Jun 10th 2019 at 4:12:14 AM

You should finish Angel Season 5, though, because that is one of Angel's best seasons and has some great episodes in it, including "Smile Time," the puppet episode!

I had no issue with Anya's death.The actress requested it, and it was fittingly anticlimactic - in a big battle like that some people are just gonna die.

Plus she really wasn't contributing anything towards the end. After Hallie died all she did was complain a lot.

I found this essay while watching this video response to it.

This is a really old article but it still highlights some strange criticisms of Whedon's writing with the claim of how Buffy is actually anti-feminist. I don't think it is but it is interesting to see where she is coming from.

James Marsters Shares Bizarre Story About Joss Whedon’s Reaction to Spike’s Popularity

I'm starting to get some Gene Roddenberry vibes from Whedon. He was long attributed to be the dominant creative force of an immensely popular cult franchise and built that reputation through extensive fan interaction, but with enough time cracks in the "god producer" persona start to show.

Stunt coordinator Jeff Pruitt has been hinting at this for a while, bringing up similar issues where Whedon let Buffy's success put his ego into overdrive. He dated, later married, Gellar's stunt double Sophia Crawford and she says Whedon gave her an ultimatum to break up with Pruitt in order to stay on the show.

What is wrong with Gene Roddenberry?

Exactly what I said in the first paragraph. It's more a discovery that these people we idolize are human and not some sort of benevolent deity we are privileged to hear from. Roddenberry specifically had numerous affairs and during the early seasons of TNG had alienated a number of longstanding creative partners in part due to excessive drug use harming his mental state and in part to using his lawyer as a buffer to all interactions.

Suddenly I feel we have an answer to why there just wasn't any notion of a Buffy or Angel reunion special...did anyone enjoy working for Joss?

Edited by Zarius on Jul 16th 2020 at 1:16:15 AM

I mean, he doesn't have a Production Posse for nothing. He must be doing something right.

It can be complex, not everyone will have the same experience and people change over time. I remember Joel McHale admitted he was more tolerant of Dan Harmon's behavior because he felt like Harmon took a chance on him and gave him a job, and I think David Boreanaz has said similar things.

I think Whedon was especially protective of his writers, then his lead actors. Hearing he was rough on Marsters is surprising, as being the showrunner no one forced him to make Spike a regular, let alone force a romantic subplot with Buffy.

Yeah, I didn't know Marsters and Whedon were at odds over Marsters's popularity.

I remember hearing a story a decade or two back about Marsters and Whedon having a disagreement regarding Spike's backstory. In season five the show revealed the long-anticipated story of William the Bloody (Awful Poet), and those last two words were a point of contention for Marsters. He felt that this development would ruin his character.

Much to the contrary, Spike's fans liked the sensitive and meek poet that became (to his fans) the greatest and most interesting vampire in the show's history. Up to that point, Spike had been characterized as unusually sensitive and emotional for a vampire, so this reveal actually clicked for that section of the audience.

EDIT: Also, this typo is kind of amazing.

From now on, I'm referring to all Misaimed Fandom sexualizations of characters as a "pubic response".

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 16th 2020 at 7:50:56 AM