Lord of the Rings

Is that in the texts, or fanon?

It did not help that Cirdan thought Gandalf was the wisest of the wizards which is why Gandalf was entrusted with Narya. That was a serious blow to Saruman’s pride and made Saruman resent Gandalf.

The Ring Saruman made? Text. It's never explicitly stated but Gandalf notes a ring on Saruman's finger.

And considering what setting we're talking about, if somebody like Gandalf takes note of something like that, it has to mean something.

Saruman delved into ring-lore and made a number of lesser rings. He never became skilled enough to attempt something as powerful as the One, but Tolkien said that he might have reached that level given enough time.

Ah right. Well, there's a billion little details to this universe, so you never know what is and isn't canon.

Saruman even outright boasted about it to Gandalf, calling himself "Saruman Ring-Maker".

Edited by M84 on Mar 16th 2021 at 9:51:07 PM

I was gonna say that but with audio

It's an awesome scene and speech.

Gandalf's response was even better.

"I liked white better."

Edited by M84 on Mar 16th 2021 at 10:17:50 PM

So I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s and thus I read HP long, long before I got into LOTR. But of course I knew Dumbledore was heavily inspired by Gandalf. A younger me saw the LOTR films at least. (They are as poor a representation of the books as the HP movies are, though)

My point is just that, going back and reading LOTR after HP, Gandalf really isn't that much like Dumbledore. Dumbledore is is extremely gentle in his words and actions. Gandalf has a pretty harsh streak about him and will waste no time talking shit to fools. I think one could fairly characterize him as a jerk, at least compared to the saintly Dumbledore. Much more aggressive or blunt.

Gandalf isn't really a jerk, he's more of a sarcastic trickster.

Yeah, it's such a huge book, it took me years to even get around to it. Doing a course on Tolkien sure did the trick though.

I'd say Gandalf has a rougher exterior, Dumbledore has a rougher interior.

Gandalf (moreso Gandalf The Grey) is portrayed as a bit rougher on the outside, with a rougher, unassuming and disheveled appearance than can make one easily mistake him for just a vagrant (fitting his very humble characterization and fondness for "the simple things", like his love for the Hobbits and the Shire), but also very fiery in personality (part of his running motif with fire), bombastic and occasionally a bit of a trickster. But despite the rough exterior, Gandalf is practically a (literal) angel underneath, and his heroism is basically unquestionable even though he makes occasional human mistakes.

Dumbledore is in contrast a lot more aristocratic both in figurative and literal sense (i.e he is of a very high-class Blue Blood background in the narrative while Gandalf is basically a magic hobo despite his angellic nature). His appearance and personality is a lot more regal and impressiveve and he's always shown as a incredibly calm, mellow (which is why Dumbledore bellowing "HARRY DID YOU PUT YOUR NAME IN THE GOBLET OF FIRE!?" in the film is such a meme) and traditionally intellectual figure in contrast to Gandalf's fiery approach. By contrast, despite this more pristine exterior, Dumbledore has a pretty dark undercurrent as a former race supremacist and the story takes him to task for the fact he essentially raised Harry as a lamb for slaughter (though in both cases I don't think Rowling ever reckons with Dumbledore's darkness properly).

They're like a Red Oni, Blue Oni bit of wizardry.

As The White Gandalf strikes closer to Dumbledore because he eschews the unassuming appearance and becomes much more of a regal figure externally, but the main contrasts still remain.

Gandalf the White is basically Gandalf letting more of his true nature as a Maiar, ie an angel, be revealed.

Dumbledore is basically a wise old man whose wisdom was gained through the terrible and costly mistakes of his youth.

Edited by M84 on Mar 17th 2021 at 12:05:26 AM

They're also both incredible operators running a vast gambit against a ancient evil. The key difference is that Dumbledore's has a much more emotionally manipulative and ruthless edge to it (with Harry as a lamb for slaughter and Dumbledore essentially guaranteeing Draco becomes accessory to a murder to facilitate his plans). Gandalf, despite being an advisor to kings, doesn't really manipulate anyone (closest being with Bilbo in the Erebor quest where he's a bit light on details). In fact during LOTR Gandalf is noted for the fact nobody seems to listen to him because he's so incredibly blunt about the truth at hand. Hence Grima calling Gandalf "Stormcrow, ill news is an ill guest!" because he's always coming out and about with (100% true, but politically inconvenient) portents of doom. Dumbledore on the other hand plays his card very close to the chest and omits a whole lot of information from several parties to make sure his plans go smoothly (often to the direct detriment of those parties).

In a sense Dumbledore is much more of a Good Counterpart to Saruman, with the "cold intellectual and ruthless operator" thing with a dark streak and a tendency to use people as pawns in chess.

Tom's hardly ancient evil. A few decades is a pretty long time, but it's not ancient.

Gandalf's somewhat limited since he's not actually allowed to be that much of a Manipulative Bastard or take a more direct role. He's only allowed to guide mortals, not lead or rule them.

Beneath the rough affectations and Grumpy Old Man facade, Gandalf's got a ton of empathy for the people of Middle-Earth. Fitting, given he's an angel who, unlike Saruman, has remained true to his mission.

Dumbledore by contrast has always struggled with empathy. Heck, he admits that the one big miscalculation he made in his plan to defeat Tom using Harry was that he never expected he would grow to genuinely love Harry. Dumbledore's at least self-aware enough to realize it even if he couldn't fully overcome it, and that this is why he couldn't be trusted with power.

Edited by M84 on Mar 17th 2021 at 12:31:12 AM

I was more referring to the narrative framing. Yeah, objectively Tom's just a few decades old but the narrative framing as an "evil of a terrible past" with the constant references to heyday as a long-past "dark times" and his link to the subsequently older Grindelwald and the even older Deathly Hallows. Time frame is obviously much shorter by several orders of magnitute but the framing is essentially the same as Sauron with the War of the Last Alliance (i.e massive past evil thought defeated and forgotten returns from the brink to plunge the world in darkness).

And part of it is his limitations as a Maiar, part of it is personality I think. Gandalf just seems to favour a direct approach based more on his incredible (and supernaturally augmented by the Ring of Fire) oratory skills to inspire people and convince them of their higher calling. Saruman, by contrast, even when he was on the side of the angels, seemed to play his cards close to the chest and not share much of what he was actualy doing. He'd just show up with solutions/ideas.

The irony is that Saruman's the one with the Compelling Voice. He could have done what Gandalf did, and do a better job of it.

Edited by M84 on Mar 17th 2021 at 12:35:45 AM

Dumbledore is an elf, then. Wisdom from learning not to be a racial supremacist the harrrrrrrrrd way

Saruman could trick people into doing what he wanted with his compelling voice, but Gandalf convinces people to do the right thing and is always pushing them towards being stronger and braver than they think they are, from Bilbo to Theoden. Only Denethor and Saruman completely resist Gandalf's abilities to inspire the best in people, and pride is a big factor in both cases.

Does anyone else wonder what the fate of Radagast was after the War of the Ring?

My assumption is that he either went into hiding after being tricked by Saruman,or was captured by the latter and perished,either way he seems to vanish from Middle Earth because the elves sent from Rivendell don't find him at Rhosgobel

Tolkien himself gave contradicting takes on what happened to Radagast the Brown. I personally liked the one that he stuck around to be a protector of the green Walking the Earth, possibly partially as a atonement to his failure to show up properly during the War of the Ring.

A extrapolation of that I've seen brought up in a few headcanons and fanfics is that Radagast the Brown lived on to makes sure the Redbook of Westmarch survived all these eons to make its way to Tolkien.

I do quite like that headcanon: one of the last surviving people of the story's era, wandering the world while protecting one of the few records that yet remain of that time.

Merlin came from somewhere, didn't he

why am I picturing Radagast acting like Merlin acting like Gandalf