The Order of the Stick

^^ The implication is that he knows that and feels that it's a worthwhile trade even if it makes him feel like shit. At least, that's how I read it.

Source?

Edited by Wackd on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:59:59 AM

Loki's pragmatic enough to put the permanent removal of basically the only thing that can kill him above keeping his daughter alive. if they have to make a new world, they're back to having no hope of doing that, and he has no reason to work against her anymore.

OH, got it. I just read it again. I misinterpreted Loki's statement.

What I thought he was saying: If we don't pull this off, I'll switch sides. And if we DO pull it off but we're too late and Hel dies (???), you're gonna get a knife in the dark.

What he's actually saying: If we don't pull this off, I'll switch sides. If I have to switch sides but it's too late to save Hel, you're gonna get a knife in the dark.

That makes much more sense.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:03:40 AM

Eh, I don't think Rich had all, or even most of this divine subplot planned since the first arc. The past strips contain a lot of things that maybe not outright contradict, but certainly clash with what we're seeing now. Thor's action did not match his current personality and goals and the whole stuff with Banjo suggest that the mechanics of godhood were meant to be a much simpler Clap Your Hands If You Believe system.

Still, I'll admit that all these divine politics are far better than what most fantasy worlds do with their gods. Which is to say either nothing, or a generic good vs evil game.

The mechanics of godhood are a Clap Your Hands If You Believe system. The Dark One ascended despite the wishes of the pantheons because he inspired an awful lot of hand-clapping goblins.

Had Banjo ascended, he'd have been a Yellow Quiddity god or demigod, since he had divine welcome in the Northern Pantheon.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:12:52 AM

And it's also why Loki is literally incapable of honesty outside of Evil Gloating.

It's not that Loki is incapable of honesty; it's that he's got a Crying Wolf dilemma: nobody believes him when he's telling the truth.

I think the divine beings' core personality doesn't change, just the fine details.

The way he explains it, it seems like he really is incapable of honesty barring rubbing things in Thor's face due to his worshipers.

Edited by M84 on Aug 27th 2019 at 12:18:38 AM

No, he's literally incapable of honesty, according to this strip.

• Thor: Then why don't you just go back in there and explain about The Dark One? Tell her why you voted the way you did.
• Loki: Because I can't! Half a billion people down there believe I'm incapable of honesty. Do you think I can just go against that when it's inconvenient?
• Thor: You're explaining it to me just fine.
• Loki: There seems to be some doctrinal flexibility when it comes to rubbing things in your face, specifically.

Loki physically can't be open and honest with Hel because his religion worships him as a trickster god incapable of such honesty, with the sole exception of gloating to Thor about his schemes. The gods, it seems, are heavily influenced by their worshippers' beliefs, not just powered by them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:21:05 AM

Thor mentions that ascending into godhood requires sponsorship from an exsisting pantheon, implying that you simply cannot have a god who wasn't a result of current gods meddling with reality. Earlier strips imply that every entity with followers is a god and power is the only difference. No mention of tapping into anything.

As mentioned above, Loki specifically state that his lack of honesty is cause by half a billion people believing he is incapable of honesty. The whole Crying Wolf thing is just an additional problem.

Interesting. So he's compelled to lie because his divinity is powered by people believing in him as a liar. Fascinating.

The ultimate Slave to PR

It's also why Thor is no longer a redhead.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:25:53 AM

Doesn't Thor mention that they didn't even think what the Dark One achieved was impossible? Maybe all of that stuff is just what he and the others believed to be the case with godhood.

It adds a new layer to the relationship between gods and clerics. Traditionally, clerics can only be one step removed from their god's alignment, but there aren't really a lot of rules defining gods' behavior. It's not something that comes up much. Gods tend to be abstract beings who mostly, in D&D, serve as power supplies for Clerics and the occasional quest-giver or obstacle.

Burlew's taken that dynamic and flipped it. As much as Clerics are at the mercy of their gods' alignments and domains, so too are gods at the mercy of their faithful's beliefs. Clerics must be, at least to some extent, consistent with the behavior of their gods, who themselves must be to some extent consistent with the faith that mortals place in them.

Thor is Lawful Good, so his Clerics can never be Neutral Evil. Meanwhile, Thor's faithful perceives him as Lawful Good, so Thor himself can never behave in a Neutral Evil fashion.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:33:06 AM

It's almost tragic that the only person Loki can be remotely honest with is Thor, and that's only when he is gloating to him.

You know, Character Development for gods must be a nightmare. Because of that "one step removed" clause, it is possible. But it would probably take generations for a god to "change". They'd need to change how the world perceives them.

If Loki, for instance, decided he wanted to be Lawful Evil. He'd need to start picking up a lot of Neutral Evil Clerics because he can't have Lawful Evil Clerics. They'd need to spread the doctrine of a Neutral Evil Loki, and they'd need to spend centuries doing it to the point that Chaotic Evil Loki fades from the faithful's belief. Only then could Loki be Neutral Evil.

And then he'd need to start picking up Lawful Evil Clerics and do the same thing all over again.

Frankly, the Snarl would probably eat the world long before a god managed to crawl their way to a different point on the alignment chart.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:36:54 AM

What happens between worlds i wonder

They kill time with the souls of their worshipers, subsist off their stores of energy they squirreled away, and brainstorm the next world and a new prison for the Snarl.

Edited by M84 on Aug 27th 2019 at 12:50:56 AM

Somebody took soul food too literally. So what happened before the first world? and what generates soul matter anyway

We can assume that before the first world, there was nothing, and then the gods created themselves like a divine big bang.

As far as how soul food works, Thor explains it here.

Heh, so Loki didn't even have a grand lesson he wanted to teach Hel, he just figured it would be a way to spice things up a little. It doesn't even sound like he thought she'd be this weakened from it all.

Side note, Hel's domain appears to be within the Neutral Evil plane.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:57:03 AM

Didn't Think This Through is a huge part of Loki's shtick. It's true of a lot of Trickster God types, come to think of it.

So can we all agree now that Loki's Chaotic Evil?