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''Bro-Rangers'' is a Sprite-based Webcomic inspired by what is known among the lucky participants as The Greatest MSN Conversation in History, and started in November 2009. Among various hiatuses, the comic is still running somewhat strongly today and can be read online at [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker Forum's 'The World Ends With You' Board]] as each issue is released, and archived later at [[http://www.rzcomics.webs.com TWEWY Fanverse Comics Archive]]
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''Bro-Rangers'' is a Sprite-based Webcomic inspired by what is known among the lucky participants as The Greatest MSN Conversation in History, and started in November 2009. Among various hiatuses, the comic is still running somewhat strongly today pretty much dead and can be read online at [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker Forum's 'The World Ends With You' Board]] as each issue is released, and is archived later at [[http://www.rzcomics.webs.com TWEWY Fanverse Comics Archive]]
[[https://comicfury.com/read/bro-rangers/archive this Comic Fury archive.]]
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Deleted Five Man Band example: Zero-context. Part of TRS Wick Cleaning - cannot expand due to unfamiliarity.
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* FiveManBand: Rabro, Kanbro, Arbro, Brolord, and Scarbro.
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* TakeThat: Subverted, Issue 52 is a stab at SunMoonGames, regarding the way ''Carlito: The Game'' ended. Subverted in that the author of the comic is also the founder of Sun Moon Games.
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* TakeThat: Subverted, Issue 52 is a stab at SunMoonGames, Creator/SunMoonGames, regarding the way ''Carlito: The Game'' ended. Subverted in that the author of the comic is also the founder of Sun Moon Games.
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** Zexion joined the cast for 50-ish issues on Pheonyx's team. Not [[Franchise/KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
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** Zexion joined the cast for 50-ish issues on Pheonyx's team. Not [[Franchise/KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort [[Webcomic/AnsemRetort this one.]]
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Bro-Rangers' is a Sprite-based Webcomic inspired by what is known among the lucky participants as The Greatest MSN Conversation in History, and started in November 2009. Among various hiatuses, the comic is still running somewhat strongly today and can be read online at [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker Forum's 'The World Ends With You' Board]] as each issue is released, and archived later at [[http://www.rzcomics.webs.com TWEWY Fanverse Comics Archive]]
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You can see the Archives [[http://rzcomics.webs.com/brorangers.htm here]] and check out the wiki, the Encybropedia, [[http://brorangers.wikia.com/wiki/Bro-Rangers_Wiki here.]]
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Bro-Rangers contains examples of:
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** Zexion joined the cast for 50-ish issues on Pheonyx's team. Not [[KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
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** Zexion joined the cast for 50-ish issues on Pheonyx's team. Not [[KingdomHearts [[Franchise/KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
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http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/BroRangerMinipic_2603.png
[[caption-width:372:Our Great Heroes]]
[[caption-width:372:Our Great Heroes]]
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[[caption-width:372:Our
[[caption-width-right:372:Our Great Heroes]]
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* RealLifeWritesThePlot: The matter between the [[{{Gatito}} Tenhograd]] and Kanontopia names for Shibuya became a RunningGag in the forums. Bro-Rangers just got their first to make matters official.
to:
* RealLifeWritesThePlot: The matter between the [[{{Gatito}} [[Webcomic/{{Gatito}} Tenhograd]] and Kanontopia names for Shibuya became a RunningGag in the forums. Bro-Rangers just got their first to make matters official.
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** An entire mini-arc was dedicated solely to CarnivalPhantasm's Afterschool Alleyway Allience.
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** An entire mini-arc was dedicated solely to CarnivalPhantasm's ''Anime/CarnivalPhantasm'''s Afterschool Alleyway Allience.
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** There's also now official listings on the Arcs in the comic. The names vary between nice ones like 'The Brologue' and 'That First Arc'... and rather ones like the 'Pheo is Incompetant Arc' and the 'Nothing-In-Particular Arc'.
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** There's also now official listings on the Arcs in the comic. The names vary between nice ones like 'The Brologue' and 'That First Arc'... and rather amusing ones like the 'Pheo is Incompetant Arc' and the 'Nothing-In-Particular Arc'.
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Lots of editing today <3
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** There's also now official listings on the Arcs in the comic. The names vary between nice ones like 'The Brologue' and 'That First Arc'... and rather ones like the 'Pheo is Incompetant Arc' and the 'Nothing-In-Particular Arc'.
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* BeatPanel: Every one in the comic has Beat from TWEWY show up in the panel in some way.
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* BeatPanel: Every one in the comic has [[IncrediblyLamePun Beat from TWEWY show up in the panel panel]] in some way.
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* AuthorAvatar: Half the main cast, the rest help out occasionally.
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* AllThereInTheManual: The Encybropedia, along with characters and issues, contains a lot of explanation and expansion on abilities and concepts within the comic, like the Bro's being Full Coloured. They're all just as reference and joke ridden as the comic itself.
* AuthorAvatar:Half In a way, a lot of the main cast, cast. Justified in that the rest help out occasionally.comic is based around a parody of the forum members who came up with it.
* BeatPanel: Every one in the comic has Beat from TWEWY show up in the panel in some way.
* AuthorAvatar:
* BeatPanel: Every one in the comic has Beat from TWEWY show up in the panel in some way.
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* {{Flanderization}}: Most of the cast are actual forum members from Neoseeker who frequent the TWEWY board there. Bro-Rangers took a lead trait from those people and turned it into their entire character.
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* {{Flanderization}}: Most of the cast are actual forum members from Neoseeker who frequent the TWEWY board there. Bro-Rangers took a lead trait from those people and turned it into their entire character.
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* HurricaneOfPuns: The word 'Bro' was inserted into any possible spot for most of the early series. It kind of stopped after a while though, with only Brolord really doing it now.
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* RunningJoke: The BeatPanel entry above
** Also, the [[http://i43.tinypic.com/2jb2t1k.png three]] [[http://i52.tinypic.com/nvcok9.png Easter]] [[http://i44.tinypic.com/6dr7fq.png specials]].
** Also, the [[http://i43.tinypic.com/2jb2t1k.png three]] [[http://i52.tinypic.com/nvcok9.png Easter]] [[http://i44.tinypic.com/6dr7fq.png specials]].
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Bro-Rangers is one of the comics in Neoseekers TWEWY Fanverse. Unlike [[ShootersEpicAwesomeAdventureOfManliness SEAAOM]] and {{Gatito}}, the only relation to TWEWY is that its a SpriteComic using its resources.
It features a rather large-ish cast, consisting of members of [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker's TWEWY Board]] and various extras.
The entire thing was inspired by an MSN Conversation between the 5 Main Character's IRL Selves, and most issue scripts are random scenarios played out on MSN or random things we yell at each other, effectively making Rabla, Kanon and [=ViperSean=] the writing staff.
It features a rather large-ish cast, consisting of members of [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker's TWEWY Board]] and various extras.
The entire thing was inspired by an MSN Conversation between the 5 Main Character's IRL Selves, and most issue scripts are random scenarios played out on MSN or random things we yell at each other, effectively making Rabla, Kanon and [=ViperSean=] the writing staff.
to:
It features a rather large-ish cast, consisting of members of
The story follows 5 People who awaken to a mysterious power and form the 'Bro-Rangers', a team of bro-some heroes that fight to defeat the evil Hoes and their leader, 'The Communist'. Well, that was the original concept. The comic's plot has spiralled and now includes a large cast of original characters, various
The entire thing was inspired by an MSN Conversation between
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* TakeThat: Subverted, Issue 52 is a stab at SunMoonGames, regarding the way ''Carlito: The Game'' ended. Subverted in that the author of the comic is also the founder of Sun Moon Games.
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* AbortedArc: Continuing with the comic's RealLifeWritesThePlot setup, there was going to be an arc after Issue 43 parodying Ace Attorney. However, the comic went into one of it's many hiatuses after that, so when it picked back up, it jumped straight to Platinum's introduction.
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* {{Revision}}: In The Brologue, it's stated that the comic takes place outside Japan (in Part 1, Rabla mentions Miku is doing the concert outside Japan). However, after the comic switches to its current Overworld format, the setting is officially set as Shibuya.
* SexySantaDress: Shield-chan's main outfit.
* SexySantaDress: Shield-chan's main outfit.
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* BigBad: The series opens with The Communist making a huge impact on the cast members, and their adventures begin with the Bros fighting off various Hoes. This is dropped pretty quickly after its made clear in the issues the focus swaps to The Communist (Pheonyx) that she isn't the most competant Big Bad out there. Series 1's primary conflict actually comes from one of her underlings, Prometheus el Brittania, and the appearances of Kanon's arch-nemesis Lord Laziness. Series 2 opens with the reveal of Mavireil, but even she has gone mostly ignored after a line of issues focusing on the new conflict.
* ButtMonkey: Arcliff. Used as a weapon on more than one occasion.
* ButtMonkey: Arcliff. Used as a weapon on more than one occasion.
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* BigBad: The series opens with The Communist making a huge impact on the cast members, and their adventures begin with the Bros fighting off various Hoes. This is dropped pretty quickly after its made clear in the issues the focus swaps to The Communist (Pheonyx) that she isn't the most competant Big Bad out there. Series 1's primary conflict actually comes from one of her underlings, Prometheus el Brittania, and the appearances of Kanon's Kanbro's arch-nemesis Lord Laziness. Series 2 opens with the reveal of Mavireil, but even she has gone mostly ignored after a line of issues focusing on the new conflict.
* ButtMonkey:Arcliff.Arbro. Used as a weapon on more than one occasion.
* ButtMonkey:
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* CharacterMagneticTeam: Both sides; The Bros pick up Viper, Scarbro and Shield-chan during their adventures, while Pheonyx teams up with the returned Blue Moustache Man and gathers Tenho and Zexion.
** [[LampshadeHanging Rabla notices.]]
** [[LampshadeHanging Rabla notices.]]
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* CharacterMagneticTeam: Both sides; The Bros pick up Viper, Scarbro and Shield-chan during their adventures, while Pheonyx teams up with the returned Blue Moustache Man and gathers Tenho and Zexion.
Zexion
** [[LampshadeHangingRabla Rabro notices.]]]]
** Ellie joins the Bros when she is supplied with the computer they get, and Platinum confuses Zexion into letting him on their side.
** [[LampshadeHanging
** Ellie joins the Bros when she is supplied with the computer they get, and Platinum confuses Zexion into letting him on their side.
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* [[EveryoneCallsHimBarkeep Everyone Calls Her Shield-chan]]: After being rescued from her position as a HumanShield, Arbro asks what her name is and 'Shield' is the first thing to pop into Kanbro's head. Doesnt help that she doesn't talk.
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* [[EveryoneCallsHimBarkeep Everyone Calls Her Shield-chan]]: After being rescued from her position as a HumanShield, Arbro asks what her name is and 'Shield' is the first thing to pop into Kanbro's head. Doesnt help that Since she doesn't talk.talk, it's never objected against and sticks.
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* InsaneTrollLogic: Platinum convinces Zexion to let him join when he signs a form saying he can officially certify documents, and proclaims since he is certified, the document he just signed saying he is certified is legit.
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* BerserkButton: A Few actually
** Don't try to harm Loli in front of Kanbro
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabro the Easter Bunny isn't real
* BigBad: The Communist/Pheonyx
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Laziness is more of an Antagonist than her. Theres also Prometheus, who seems to be planning something.
** Prometheus got beaten soon after. And now that Pheonyx has finally gotten to her seat of power of Shibuya... she temporarily retired from being Evil. A new baddie conviently appeared the very next issue. L.L hasn't been seen again yet, but he's probably up to something.
** Don't try to harm Loli in front of Kanbro
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabro the Easter Bunny isn't real
* BigBad: The Communist/Pheonyx
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Laziness is more of an Antagonist than her. Theres also Prometheus, who seems to be planning something.
** Prometheus got beaten soon after. And now that Pheonyx has finally gotten to her seat of power of Shibuya... she temporarily retired from being Evil. A new baddie conviently appeared the very next issue. L.L hasn't been seen again yet, but he's probably up to something.
to:
* BerserkButton: A Few actually
** Don't try to harm Loli in frontMultiple members of Kanbro
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabrothe Easter Bunny isn't real
cast seem to have made theirs clear.
* BigBad: TheCommunist/Pheonyx
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Lazinessseries opens with The Communist making a huge impact on the cast members, and their adventures begin with the Bros fighting off various Hoes. This is more dropped pretty quickly after its made clear in the issues the focus swaps to The Communist (Pheonyx) that she isn't the most competant Big Bad out there. Series 1's primary conflict actually comes from one of an Antagonist than her. Theres also Prometheus, who seems to be planning something.
**her underlings, Prometheus got beaten soon after. And now that Pheonyx el Brittania, and the appearances of Kanon's arch-nemesis Lord Laziness. Series 2 opens with the reveal of Mavireil, but even she has finally gotten to her seat gone mostly ignored after a line of power of Shibuya... she temporarily retired from being Evil. A issues focusing on the new baddie conviently appeared the very next issue. L.L hasn't been seen again yet, but he's probably up to something.conflict.
** Don't try to harm Loli in front
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabro
* BigBad: The
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Laziness
**
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* CallingYourAttacks: Most battles use this.
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** To the point he quits the team because of how they're treating him. Rabro and Kanbro make sure to get two more puns in as he leaves.
* CallingYourAttacks: Most battles before the style-switch to Overworld sprites usethis.this. After the switch, its generally avoiding since, you know, you can see what they're doing now.
* CallingYourAttacks: Most battles before the style-switch to Overworld sprites use
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* {{Flanderization}}: If you've seen us on the TWEWY Forum, you'll probably find the comic a lot more funnier.
to:
* {{Flanderization}}: If you've seen us on Most of the cast are actual forum members from Neoseeker who frequent the TWEWY Forum, you'll probably find the comic board there. Bro-Rangers took a lot more funnier.lead trait from those people and turned it into their entire character.
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* FiveManBand: Regardless of how many people come in and out of the Bro-Cave, only Rabro, Kanbro, Arbro, Brolord and Scarbro have been set in stone as main characters. The others will probably die or just stick around until we need them.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro and Pheonyx.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro and Pheonyx.
to:
* FiveManBand: Regardless of how many people come in and out of the Bro-Cave, only Rabro, Kanbro, Arbro, Brolord Brolord, and Scarbro have been set in stone as main characters. The others will probably die or just stick around until we need them.
Scarbro.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro andPheonyx.Pheonyx that starts off the reoccuring Election Arc.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro and
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** Theres now Zexion too. Not [[KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk to ghosts.
* OriginalCharacter: Most of them, but the only characters exclusive to Bro-Rangers are Lord Laziness, Ellie, Mavireil and Platinum.
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk to ghosts.
* OriginalCharacter: Most of them, but the only characters exclusive to Bro-Rangers are Lord Laziness, Ellie, Mavireil and Platinum.
to:
** Theres now Zexion too.joined the cast for 50-ish issues on Pheonyx's team. Not [[KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk toghosts.
ghosts, which has been a way to keep Viper around after Rabro and Kanbro killed him for totally legitimate reasons.
* OriginalCharacter:Most of them, but Pretty much the entire cast are Original Characters based on the Neoseeker members using a sprite they made to represent themselves. However, the only characters exclusive to made exclusively for Bro-Rangers are Lord Laziness, Ellie, Mavireil and Platinum.
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk to
* OriginalCharacter:
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** An entire mini-arc was dedicated solely to CarnivalPhantasm's Afterschool Alleyway Allience.
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You can see the Archives [[http://rzcomics.webs.com/brorangers.htm here]]
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You can see the Archives [[http://rzcomics.webs.com/brorangers.htm here]]here]] and check out the wiki, the Encybropedia, [[http://brorangers.wikia.com/wiki/Bro-Rangers_Wiki here.]]
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* TournamentArc: The latest arc of the comic. Kind of a subversion to the usual, as it is just a plain old tournament - there's no ulterior motive behind the competition, the current Big Bads aren't competing, and the only reason half the competitors are there is because the grand prize is a pre-release copy of the upcoming Noisemon Panthera version.
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http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/BroRangerMinipic_2603.png
[[caption-width:372:Our Great Heroes]]
Bro-Rangers is one of the comics in Neoseekers TWEWY Fanverse. Unlike [[ShootersEpicAwesomeAdventureOfManliness SEAAOM]] and {{Gatito}}, the only relation to TWEWY is that its a SpriteComic using its resources.
It features a rather large-ish cast, consisting of members of [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker's TWEWY Board]] and various extras.
The entire thing was inspired by an MSN Conversation between the 5 Main Character's IRL Selves, and most issue scripts are random scenarios played out on MSN or random things we yell at each other, effectively making Rabla, Kanon and [=ViperSean=] the writing staff.
You can see the Archives [[http://rzcomics.webs.com/brorangers.htm here]]
----
Bro-Rangers contains examples of:
* AuthorAvatar: Half the main cast, the rest help out occasionally.
* BerserkButton: A Few actually
** Don't try to harm Loli in front of Kanbro
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabro the Easter Bunny isn't real
* BigBad: The Communist/Pheonyx
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Laziness is more of an Antagonist than her. Theres also Prometheus, who seems to be planning something.
** Prometheus got beaten soon after. And now that Pheonyx has finally gotten to her seat of power of Shibuya... she temporarily retired from being Evil. A new baddie conviently appeared the very next issue. L.L hasn't been seen again yet, but he's probably up to something.
* ButtMonkey: Arcliff. Used as a weapon on more than one occasion.
* CallingYourAttacks: Most battles use this.
* CharacterMagneticTeam: Both sides; The Bros pick up Viper, Scarbro and Shield-chan during their adventures, while Pheonyx teams up with the returned Blue Moustache Man and gathers Tenho and Zexion.
** [[LampshadeHanging Rabla notices.]]
* {{Flanderization}}: If you've seen us on the TWEWY Forum, you'll probably find the comic a lot more funnier.
* [[EveryoneCallsHimBarkeep Everyone Calls Her Shield-chan]]: After being rescued from her position as a HumanShield, Arbro asks what her name is and 'Shield' is the first thing to pop into Kanbro's head. Doesnt help that she doesn't talk.
* FiveManBand: Regardless of how many people come in and out of the Bro-Cave, only Rabro, Kanbro, Arbro, Brolord and Scarbro have been set in stone as main characters. The others will probably die or just stick around until we need them.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro and Pheonyx.
* IntercontinuityCrossover: See if you can spot and name all the other TWEWY Fanverse characters in Issue 16.
** Theres now Zexion too. Not [[KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk to ghosts.
* OriginalCharacter: Most of them, but the only characters exclusive to Bro-Rangers are Lord Laziness, Ellie, Mavireil and Platinum.
* RandomNumberGod: Rabro has the ability to '''rip into another dimension and alter it in his favor'''
* RealLifeWritesThePlot: The matter between the [[{{Gatito}} Tenhograd]] and Kanontopia names for Shibuya became a RunningGag in the forums. Bro-Rangers just got their first to make matters official.
** Mikachu attacking Cucurbita and Mari, Pheonyx and Cucurbita's daughter also follow this rule.
** It appears a few issues are made just because of what someone said or did at some point, then they took it, spruced it up a bit, and ran with it. Issue 30 is a good example.
* ShoutOut: Various video game and anime references show up.
* UselessUsefulSpell: Rainbro Judgement Beam, the teams Signiture Attack, never hits.
[[caption-width:372:Our Great Heroes]]
Bro-Rangers is one of the comics in Neoseekers TWEWY Fanverse. Unlike [[ShootersEpicAwesomeAdventureOfManliness SEAAOM]] and {{Gatito}}, the only relation to TWEWY is that its a SpriteComic using its resources.
It features a rather large-ish cast, consisting of members of [[http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/34047/ Neoseeker's TWEWY Board]] and various extras.
The entire thing was inspired by an MSN Conversation between the 5 Main Character's IRL Selves, and most issue scripts are random scenarios played out on MSN or random things we yell at each other, effectively making Rabla, Kanon and [=ViperSean=] the writing staff.
You can see the Archives [[http://rzcomics.webs.com/brorangers.htm here]]
----
Bro-Rangers contains examples of:
* AuthorAvatar: Half the main cast, the rest help out occasionally.
* BerserkButton: A Few actually
** Don't try to harm Loli in front of Kanbro
** Don't call [=ViperSeans=] BagOfHolding a Man-Purse
** Don't tell Rabro the Easter Bunny isn't real
* BigBad: The Communist/Pheonyx
** Pheonyx hasn't done anything rather evil yet, so Lord Laziness is more of an Antagonist than her. Theres also Prometheus, who seems to be planning something.
** Prometheus got beaten soon after. And now that Pheonyx has finally gotten to her seat of power of Shibuya... she temporarily retired from being Evil. A new baddie conviently appeared the very next issue. L.L hasn't been seen again yet, but he's probably up to something.
* ButtMonkey: Arcliff. Used as a weapon on more than one occasion.
* CallingYourAttacks: Most battles use this.
* CharacterMagneticTeam: Both sides; The Bros pick up Viper, Scarbro and Shield-chan during their adventures, while Pheonyx teams up with the returned Blue Moustache Man and gathers Tenho and Zexion.
** [[LampshadeHanging Rabla notices.]]
* {{Flanderization}}: If you've seen us on the TWEWY Forum, you'll probably find the comic a lot more funnier.
* [[EveryoneCallsHimBarkeep Everyone Calls Her Shield-chan]]: After being rescued from her position as a HumanShield, Arbro asks what her name is and 'Shield' is the first thing to pop into Kanbro's head. Doesnt help that she doesn't talk.
* FiveManBand: Regardless of how many people come in and out of the Bro-Cave, only Rabro, Kanbro, Arbro, Brolord and Scarbro have been set in stone as main characters. The others will probably die or just stick around until we need them.
* {{Flashback}}: The Shibuya Election between Kanbro and Pheonyx.
* IntercontinuityCrossover: See if you can spot and name all the other TWEWY Fanverse characters in Issue 16.
** Theres now Zexion too. Not [[KingdomHearts that]] Zexion, [[AnsemRetort this one.]]
* ISeeDeadPeople: Scarbro can talk to ghosts.
* OriginalCharacter: Most of them, but the only characters exclusive to Bro-Rangers are Lord Laziness, Ellie, Mavireil and Platinum.
* RandomNumberGod: Rabro has the ability to '''rip into another dimension and alter it in his favor'''
* RealLifeWritesThePlot: The matter between the [[{{Gatito}} Tenhograd]] and Kanontopia names for Shibuya became a RunningGag in the forums. Bro-Rangers just got their first to make matters official.
** Mikachu attacking Cucurbita and Mari, Pheonyx and Cucurbita's daughter also follow this rule.
** It appears a few issues are made just because of what someone said or did at some point, then they took it, spruced it up a bit, and ran with it. Issue 30 is a good example.
* ShoutOut: Various video game and anime references show up.
* UselessUsefulSpell: Rainbro Judgement Beam, the teams Signiture Attack, never hits.