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** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague. It's telling that the UpdatedRerelease added three more endings that tone things down to a less malicious Law or Chaos ending.
to:
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague. It's telling that the UpdatedRerelease added three more endings that tone things down to a less malicious Law or Chaos ending.down.
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** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague.
to:
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague. It's telling that the UpdatedRerelease added three more endings that tone things down to a less malicious Law or Chaos ending.
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* In ''Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary'' and sequels, dimensions dominated by [[TheFairFolk the Fae]] are maddeningly unpredictable worlds run on personal whim and the TheoryOfNarrativeCausality, while those controlled by [[OurDragonsAreDifferent the Dragons]] are rigidly physical places where nothing happens except because a dragon king has decreed it. The role of the Library is to maintain the worlds in the middle, where humans get to be something other than supporting cast, and stop the Fae ''or'' the Dragons getting too much power.
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* In ''Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary'' and sequels, dimensions dominated by [[TheFairFolk the Fae]] are maddeningly unpredictable worlds run on personal whim and the TheoryOfNarrativeCausality, while those controlled by [[OurDragonsAreDifferent the Dragons]] are rigidly physical places where nothing happens except because a dragon king has decreed it. The role of the Library is to maintain the worlds in the middle, where humans get to be something other than supporting cast, and stop the Fae ''or'' the Dragons getting too much power.
power. It's also mentioned that high-chaos and high-order worlds affect the Language, the not-magic that give Librarians limited RealityWarper powers - in highly ordered worlds everything resists being told it's something other than it is, whereas in chaotic worlds everything is all too eager to change its nature and the problem is maintaining control. Both use more energy than in balanced worlds; in the orderly ones you have to push, and in the chaotic ones you get pulled.
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** Prominent villains ComicBook/LexLuthor and [[ComicBook/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants.
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** Prominent villains ComicBook/LexLuthor and [[ComicBook/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants. Though funnily enough the pair manage to maintain a solid professional relationship. Sure, they insult, undermine and backstab each other a lot but that's the nature of the job.
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* In ''Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary'' and sequels, dimensions dominated by [[TheFairFolk the Fae]] are maddening worlds run on personal whim and TheTheoryOfNarrativeCausality, while those controlled by [[OurDragonsAreDifferent the Dragons]] are rigidly physical places where nothing happens except because a dragon king has decreed it. The role of the Library is to maintain the worlds in the middle, and stop the Fae ''or'' the Dragons getting too much power.
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* In ''Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary'' and sequels, dimensions dominated by [[TheFairFolk the Fae]] are maddening maddeningly unpredictable worlds run on personal whim and TheTheoryOfNarrativeCausality, the TheoryOfNarrativeCausality, while those controlled by [[OurDragonsAreDifferent the Dragons]] are rigidly physical places where nothing happens except because a dragon king has decreed it. The role of the Library is to maintain the worlds in the middle, where humans get to be something other than supporting cast, and stop the Fae ''or'' the Dragons getting too much power.
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** There's also the Lords of Order and Chaos, opposite ends of a BlueAndOrangeMorality scale who all consider themselves BeyondGoodAndEvil
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** There's also the Lords of Order and Chaos, opposite ends of a BlueAndOrangeMorality scale who all consider themselves BeyondGoodAndEvilBeyondGoodAndEvil. Both sides have empowered both heroes and villains.
*** ''ComicBook/TheSandman'': Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
*** ''ComicBook/TheSandman'': Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
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* ''ComicBook/TheSandman'': Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
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* In ''Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary'' and sequels, dimensions dominated by [[TheFairFolk the Fae]] are maddening worlds run on personal whim and TheTheoryOfNarrativeCausality, while those controlled by [[OurDragonsAreDifferent the Dragons]] are rigidly physical places where nothing happens except because a dragon king has decreed it. The role of the Library is to maintain the worlds in the middle, and stop the Fae ''or'' the Dragons getting too much power.
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OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil. In this case, OrderIsNotGood either. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
to:
OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil. In this case, OrderIsNotGood either. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope '''[[Administrivia/InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
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* ''Series/{{Firefly}}'' and ''Film/{{Serenity}}'' end up implying this as a sort of AccidentalAesop. In the Core Worlds people are prosperous and live in relative luxury, at the cost of the Alliance controlling everything and being able to do virtually anything they can remotely justify--like [[PlayingWithSyringes experimenting on teenage girls]] and [[spoiler:using an entire planet as guinea pigs in a social engineering experiment GoneHorriblyWrong]]. On the Rim the Alliance has little presence. Life is much harder and more anarchic, but you can always look your enemy in the eye and settle things the old-fashioned way. The argument seems to be that ''a healthy society needs both''.
to:
* ''Series/{{Firefly}}'' and ''Film/{{Serenity}}'' end up implying this as a sort of AccidentalAesop. In the Core Worlds people are prosperous and live in relative luxury, at the cost of the Alliance controlling everything and being able to do virtually anything they can remotely justify--like [[PlayingWithSyringes experimenting on teenage girls]] and [[spoiler:using an entire planet as guinea pigs in a social engineering experiment GoneHorriblyWrong]]. On the Rim the Alliance has little presence. Life is much harder and more anarchic, but you can always look your enemy in the eye and settle things the old-fashioned way. The argument seems to be that ''a healthy society needs both''.
both'', where the strengths of each mitigates the flaws of the other.
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* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them "good". Played straight in ''ComicBook/TheUltimates2015''.
* ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'',: In the "Dead End Kids" arc, the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
* ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'',: In the "Dead End Kids" arc, the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
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* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. From Creator/MarvelComics:
** Initially averted. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them"good". "good".
** Played straight in''ComicBook/TheUltimates2015''.
* ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'',:''ComicBook/TheUltimates2015'', which casts both Order and Chaos as antagonists (with Order in the driver's seat). They both disapprove of Galactus' transformation into the "Lifebringer" and try to forcibly revert him to the status quo, playing into the hands of the comic's true BigBad...
** ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'': In the "Dead End Kids" arc, the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
** Initially averted. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them
** Played straight in
* ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'',:
** ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'': In the "Dead End Kids" arc, the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
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Cut trope.
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* In the ''Literature/DragonKnight'' books, the [[BiggerBad Dark Powers']] constant goal is to tip the balance between the forces of History and Chaos, in either direction. The success of History would result in [[CreativeSterility complete]] [[MedievalStasis societal]] (and possibly [[TimeStandsStill temporal]]) stasis, while the victory of Chaos would shatter all authority and stability and leave the world a kaleidoscope of terror.
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* In the ''Literature/DragonKnight'' books, the [[BiggerBad Dark Powers']] Powers' constant goal is to tip the balance between the forces of History and Chaos, in either direction. The success of History would result in [[CreativeSterility complete]] [[MedievalStasis societal]] (and possibly [[TimeStandsStill temporal]]) stasis, while the victory of Chaos would shatter all authority and stability and leave the world a kaleidoscope of terror.
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* In 'Franchise/MortalKombat'' there are the realms of Orderrealm and Chaosrealm. Orderrealm's characters consist of the {{Knight Templar}} Hotaru who aided the {{Big Bad}} of Deception, Onaga. Darius, a man rebelling against Orderrealm's establishment who set up the deaths of Dairou's family to get turn him against the Seidan Guard. And Dairou himself, a {{Hired Gun}} who is said to take jobs no matter how inhumane they are. From Chaosrealm there is Havik, who managed to help get Kabal back into the Black Dragon after he tried to reform, goes and aids Shao Kahn in his Deception ending, and is part of the Forces of Darkness in Armageddon. To say nothing of the Elder Gods, who have shown their share of questionable behavior, such as reviving Scorpion's clan as undead beings after fighting against Onaga in Deception.
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* In 'Franchise/MortalKombat'' ''Franchise/MortalKombat'' there are the realms of Orderrealm and Chaosrealm. Orderrealm's characters consist of the {{Knight Templar}} KnightTemplar Hotaru who aided the {{Big Bad}} BigBad of Deception, ''VideoGame/MortalKombatDeception'', Onaga. Darius, a man rebelling against Orderrealm's establishment who set up the deaths of Dairou's family to get turn him against the Seidan Guard. And Dairou himself, a {{Hired Gun}} Gun|s}} who is said to take jobs no matter how inhumane they are. From Chaosrealm there is Havik, who managed to help get Kabal back into the Black Dragon after he tried to reform, goes and aids Shao Kahn in his Deception ending, and is part of the Forces of Darkness in Armageddon. To say nothing of the Elder Gods, who have shown their share of questionable behavior, such as reviving Scorpion's clan as undead beings after fighting against Onaga in Deception.''Deception''.
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* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them "good".
to:
* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them "good". Played straight in ''ComicBook/TheUltimates2015''.
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OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil. In this case, Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
to:
OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil. In this case, Order is no better.OrderIsNotGood either. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
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** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' ups the ante on this trope, to the point where choosing to go Law or Chaos [[spoiler:results in NoFinalBossForYou and bad early endings. Though in am interesting play on this, the Neutral aligned villain Krishna points out neither are dangerous in themselves but [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] forcing order to be angelic and chaos to be demonic that people suffer.]]
to:
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' ups the ante on this trope, to the point where choosing to go Law or Chaos [[spoiler:results in NoFinalBossForYou and bad early bad endings. Though in am an interesting play on this, the Neutral aligned Neutral-aligned villain Krishna points out neither are dangerous in themselves but [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] forcing order to be angelic and chaos to be demonic that causes people to suffer.]]
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OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
to:
OrderVsChaos is used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently ChaosIsEvil. In this case, Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
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* ''Anime/PantyAndStockingWithGarterbelt'': The main characters are {{Sociopathic Hero}}es who [[DestructiveSavior cause wanton destruction wherever they go]], while their rivals are [[CoDragons enforcers]] to the BigBad, who [[spoiler:runs the city as its mayor]] and looks to TakeOverTheWorld.
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"increasingly being used as a modern alternative to" that's just ugly.
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OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as a modern alternative to GoodVsEvil, but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far.
If optimistic the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
If optimistic the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
to:
OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as a modern an alternative to GoodVsEvil, GoodVsEvil but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far. \n\nIf optimistic In this case, the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
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This works out to be a more understandable version of the BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil, because ''Good'' comes from the balance between the agents advocating conformity and the agents advocating individual choice, rather than some unspecified meaning of "balance". Creators can now use a MoralityKitchenSink of characters in the conflict, as both sides believe their side is morally correct behaviour. Often becomes classified as a GreyAndGrayMorality story.
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This works out similar to be BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil but with a more understandable version of the BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil, because crucial distinction. Namely, ''Good'' comes from the balance between the agents advocating conformity and the agents advocating individual choice, rather than some unspecified meaning of "balance". Creators can now use a MoralityKitchenSink of characters in the conflict, as both sides believe their side is morally correct behaviour. Often becomes Due to this, the story often is classified as a GreyAndGrayMorality story.
GreyAndGrayMorality.
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* GoldenMeanFallacy
* ShadesOfConflict
* ShadesOfConflict
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* GoldenMeanFallacy
GoldenMeanFallacy: The opposite of this trope, where "balance" is the foolish choice.
*ShadesOfConflict
ShadesOfConflict: How much weight to either side? Ten characters have ten opinions and all of them may be more or less correct.
*
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* ''Manga/OnePiece'': Pirates and KnightTemplar Marines seem to embody this. Pirates that aren't the Straw-Hats tend to terrorize and pillage, which is characteristic of them. However, some marines go to extreme measures to take down pirates and other criminals who go against justice.
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems to arguably be a product of this. The Shogunate, wanting to maintain their order, opposed the Isshin-Shishi and their tendencies show with KnightTemplar Saitou.
* ''Manga/SoulEater'': For a while, the series firmly held the stance ChaosIsEvil with the existence of [[EldritchAbomination Kishins]] and Witches with their [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pull of Magic]]. Then, as the later chapters are published, everything grays. [[spoiler: When [[{{Shinigami}} Death the Kid]] is trapped in the [[TomeOfEldritchLore Book of Eibon]], the Great Old One of Power gifts him with, well, power. Kid, as a Shinigami, represents "Order" and when he temporarily goes mad, he takes it to the extreme, believing nothingness to be the ultimate form of balance and order. Later on, it's revealed the Madness of Order, which Shinigami like him and [[BigGood Lord Death]] have, has the potential to create a mechanical cycle of life and death in humans.]]
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems to arguably be a product of this. The Shogunate, wanting to maintain their order, opposed the Isshin-Shishi and their tendencies show with KnightTemplar Saitou.
* ''Manga/SoulEater'': For a while, the series firmly held the stance ChaosIsEvil with the existence of [[EldritchAbomination Kishins]] and Witches with their [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pull of Magic]]. Then, as the later chapters are published, everything grays. [[spoiler: When [[{{Shinigami}} Death the Kid]] is trapped in the [[TomeOfEldritchLore Book of Eibon]], the Great Old One of Power gifts him with, well, power. Kid, as a Shinigami, represents "Order" and when he temporarily goes mad, he takes it to the extreme, believing nothingness to be the ultimate form of balance and order. Later on, it's revealed the Madness of Order, which Shinigami like him and [[BigGood Lord Death]] have, has the potential to create a mechanical cycle of life and death in humans.]]
to:
* ''Manga/OnePiece'': Pirates and KnightTemplar Marines seem to embody this.are two kinds of this trope. Pirates that aren't the Straw-Hats tend to terrorize and pillage, which is characteristic of them. However, some marines go to extreme measures to take down pirates and other criminals who go against justice.
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems toarguably be a product of this. The Shogunate, wanting to maintain their order, opposed the Isshin-Shishi and their tendencies show with KnightTemplar Saitou.
* ''Manga/SoulEater'': For a while, the series firmly held the stance ChaosIsEvil with the existence of [[EldritchAbomination Kishins]] and Witches with their [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pull of Magic]]. Then, as the later chapters are published, everything grays. [[spoiler: When [[{{Shinigami}} Death the Kid]] is trapped in the [[TomeOfEldritchLore Book of Eibon]], the Great Old One of Power gifts himwith, well, with... power. Kid, as a Shinigami, represents "Order" and when he temporarily goes mad, he takes it to the extreme, believing nothingness to be the ultimate form of balance and order. Later on, it's revealed the Madness of Order, which Shinigami like him and [[BigGood Lord Death]] have, has the potential to create a mechanical cycle of life and death in humans.]]
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems to
* ''Manga/SoulEater'': For a while, the series firmly held the stance ChaosIsEvil with the existence of [[EldritchAbomination Kishins]] and Witches with their [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pull of Magic]]. Then, as the later chapters are published, everything grays. [[spoiler: When [[{{Shinigami}} Death the Kid]] is trapped in the [[TomeOfEldritchLore Book of Eibon]], the Great Old One of Power gifts him
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* Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell in ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
to:
* ''ComicBook/TheSandman'': Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell in ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
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* In the "Dead End Kids" arc of ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'', the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
to:
* ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'',: In the "Dead End Kids" arc of ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'', arc, the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
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** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' ups the ante on this trope, to the point where choosing to go Law or Chaos [[spoiler:results in NoFinalBossForYou and bad early endings.]]
to:
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' ups the ante on this trope, to the point where choosing to go Law or Chaos [[spoiler:results in NoFinalBossForYou and bad early endings. Though in am interesting play on this, the Neutral aligned villain Krishna points out neither are dangerous in themselves but [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] forcing order to be angelic and chaos to be demonic that people suffer.]]
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** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse'' ups the ante on this trope, to the point where choosing to go Law or Chaos [[spoiler:results in NoFinalBossForYou and bad early endings.]]
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* GodAndSatanAreBothJerks (God is usually representing Order, while Satan is representing Chaos)
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* ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' has lawful vs chaotic alignments. The lawful alignment represents God, order, and security, and the chaotic alignment represents Lucifer, freedom, and war. At their extremes lawful characters want [[WorldOfSilence an elitist dictatorship ruled by God, with the few judged worthy of being alive under its rule doing nothing but worshiping Him for eternity]]. Extreme chaotic characters want a world of anarchy, unchecked vice, and endless war where [[TheSocialDarwinist strength is all that matters]]. You can also essentially say "[[OmnicidalNeutral screw]] [[{{Ubermensch}} everyone]]" and [[TakeAThirdOption chose the Neutral alignment]].
to:
* ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'':
** The game has lawful vs chaotic alignments. The lawful alignment represents God, order, and security, and the chaotic alignment represents Lucifer, freedom, and war. At their extremes lawful characters want [[WorldOfSilence an elitist dictatorship ruled by God, with the few judged worthy of being alive under its rule doing nothing but worshiping Him for eternity]]. Extreme chaotic characters want a world of anarchy, unchecked vice, and endless war where [[TheSocialDarwinist strength is all that matters]]. You can also essentially say "[[OmnicidalNeutral screw]] [[{{Ubermensch}} everyone]]" and [[TakeAThirdOption chose the Neutralalignment]].alignment]].
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague.
** The game has lawful vs chaotic alignments. The lawful alignment represents God, order, and security, and the chaotic alignment represents Lucifer, freedom, and war. At their extremes lawful characters want [[WorldOfSilence an elitist dictatorship ruled by God, with the few judged worthy of being alive under its rule doing nothing but worshiping Him for eternity]]. Extreme chaotic characters want a world of anarchy, unchecked vice, and endless war where [[TheSocialDarwinist strength is all that matters]]. You can also essentially say "[[OmnicidalNeutral screw]] [[{{Ubermensch}} everyone]]" and [[TakeAThirdOption chose the Neutral
** ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'' is perhaps this trope at its worst in the series, due to both factions wanting to achieve their goals by either [[MindRape forcing out any rebellious thought]] from humanity or reducing humans to their primal instincts via a HatePlague.
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** Prominent villains SelfDemonstrating/LexLuthor and [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants.
to:
** Prominent villains SelfDemonstrating/LexLuthor ComicBook/LexLuthor and [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker [[ComicBook/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants.
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OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil, but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far.
to:
OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as an a modern alternative to GoodVsEvil, but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far.
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* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. And in less extreme forms, both excess Law and excess Chaos make for unpleasant societies, with the former leading to oppressive totalitarianism and the later brutal lawlessness. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
to:
* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. And in less extreme forms, both excess Law and excess Chaos make for unpleasant societies, with the former leading to oppressive totalitarianism and the later latter brutal lawlessness. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
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* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
to:
* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. And in less extreme forms, both excess Law and excess Chaos make for unpleasant societies, with the former leading to oppressive totalitarianism and the later brutal lawlessness. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
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* Players of ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' who play LawfulNeutral or ChaoticNeutral characters have a tendency to slip into LawfulEvil or ChaoticEvil. Though Chaotic Neutral is often misinterpreted as being batshit insane.
to:
* Players of ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' who play LawfulNeutral or ChaoticNeutral characters have a tendency to slip into LawfulEvil or ChaoticEvil. Though Chaotic Neutral is often [[ChaoticStupid misinterpreted as being batshit insane.insane]].
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--> -The Principia Discordia
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* In ''WesternAnimation/TheLegoMovie'', Lord/President Business represents Order to a fault, wanting to keep all of the Lego realms separate and freeze them in place with the Kraggle so that their "perfection" can never be altered. [[CloudCuckooLander Cloudcuckooland]], a place with no rules, is initially presented as a preferable alternative, but main character Emmet ultimately finds a lot to admire in Lord Business' ambition and meticulous attention to detail [[spoiler:mirroring Finn's reconciliation with his father]]. At the end, a more threatening personification of Chaos invades: [[OutOfContextVillain the Duplo Planet]] [[spoiler:aka Finn's younger sister]].
to:
* In ''WesternAnimation/TheLegoMovie'', Lord/President Business represents Order to a fault, wanting to keep all of the Lego realms separate and freeze them in place with the Kraggle so that their "perfection" can never be altered. [[CloudCuckooLander Cloudcuckooland]], a place with no rules, is initially presented as a preferable alternative, but main character Emmet ultimately finds a lot to admire in Lord Business' ambition and meticulous attention to detail [[spoiler:mirroring Finn's reconciliation with his father]]. At the end, a more threatening personification of Chaos invades: [[OutOfContextVillain [[OutsideContextProblem the Duplo Planet]] [[spoiler:aka Finn's younger sister]].
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* ''Manga/SoulEater'': For a while, the series firmly held the stance ChaosIsEvil with the existence of [[EldritchAbomination Kishins]] and Witches with their [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pull of Magic]]. Then, as the later chapters are published, everything grays. [[spoiler: When [[{{Shinigami}} Death the Kid]] is trapped in the [[TomeOfEldritchLore Book of Eibon]], the Great Old One of Power gifts him with, well, power. Kid, as a Shinigami, represents "Order" and when he temporarily goes mad, he takes it to the extreme, believing nothingness to be the ultimate form of balance and order. Later on, it's revealed the Madness of Order, which Shinigami like him and [[BigGood Lord Death]] have, has the potential to create a mechanical cycle of life and death in humans.]]
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[[AC:FilmLiveAction]]
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->''"To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder."''
--> -The Principia Discordia
OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil, but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far.
If optimistic the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
The creators can present the two sides of the conflict as DramaticallyMissingThePoint, and the ''Good'' thing is to TakeAThirdOption, by balancing the two extremes. Too much "order" would result in a static and unchanging world. Too much "chaos" would destroy it.
This works out to be a more understandable version of the BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil, because ''Good'' comes from the balance between the agents advocating conformity and the agents advocating individual choice, rather than some unspecified meaning of "balance". Creators can now use a MoralityKitchenSink of characters in the conflict, as both sides believe their side is morally correct behaviour. Often becomes classified as a GreyAndGrayMorality story.
See also:
* AllWorkVsAllPlay (All Work favoring Order, All Play favoring Chaos)
* FalseDichotomy, this work is averting the choice of Order or Chaos.
* GoldenMeanFallacy
* ShadesOfConflict
----
!!Examples:
[[AC:AnimeAndManga]]
* ''Anime/PsychoPass'' has the Sibyl System being Order and Shogo Makishima being Chaos. The Sibyl System has essentially removed almost all free will and individuality from society, and turned it into a "happier" version of ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'' where people have to be happy or calm, or else be arrested or killed just for thinking negatively once they step outside. Makishima despises the Sibyl System, and wants to free people from its control...but he also loves violence and the darker sides of humans, often finding ways to free people to commit the crimes they've imagined of but were forced to hide from the outside world in order to wonder about them. Oh, and Makishima also believes societal collapse is an admirable goal to work towards.
* ''Manga/OnePiece'': Pirates and KnightTemplar Marines seem to embody this. Pirates that aren't the Straw-Hats tend to terrorize and pillage, which is characteristic of them. However, some marines go to extreme measures to take down pirates and other criminals who go against justice.
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems to arguably be a product of this. The Shogunate, wanting to maintain their order, opposed the Isshin-Shishi and their tendencies show with KnightTemplar Saitou.
[[AC:ComicBooks]]
* From Franchise/TheDCU:
** Prominent villains SelfDemonstrating/LexLuthor and [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants.
** There's also the Lords of Order and Chaos, opposite ends of a BlueAndOrangeMorality scale who all consider themselves BeyondGoodAndEvil
* ''ComicBook/{{PS238}}'': When the forces of Chaos and Order (resembling demons and angels) find a way back to the earth they were barred from, they turn superheroes against their own children.
* Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell in ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them "good".
* In the "Dead End Kids" arc of ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'', the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
[[AC:FilmLiveAction]]
* This is the theme of ''Film/DemolitionMan'': A cop is brought from the past to enforce order but quickly shows everyone that strict order can be just as evil as absolute chaos. In the end, the two leaders that represent chaos and order find they have to negotiate with each other in order find a good balance.
* In ''WesternAnimation/TheLegoMovie'', Lord/President Business represents Order to a fault, wanting to keep all of the Lego realms separate and freeze them in place with the Kraggle so that their "perfection" can never be altered. [[CloudCuckooLander Cloudcuckooland]], a place with no rules, is initially presented as a preferable alternative, but main character Emmet ultimately finds a lot to admire in Lord Business' ambition and meticulous attention to detail [[spoiler:mirroring Finn's reconciliation with his father]]. At the end, a more threatening personification of Chaos invades: [[OutOfContextVillain the Duplo Planet]] [[spoiler:aka Finn's younger sister]].
[[AC:{{Literature}}]]
* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
* In the 5 books focusing on Merlin in ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfAmber'', both the Pattern (the symbol of order) and its chaos counterpart the Logrus turn out to be sentient. They're both cold, inhuman forces willing to use the lives of its initiates like chess pieces as they try to win their battles with each other. [[spoiler:The second pattern that Corwin created has far more empathy for human life, however.]]
* In ''Literature/TheAdversaryCycle'' this is done in a manner somewhat similar to BlackAndGrayMorality. Chaos wants to destroy all indigenous life on Earth ToCreateAPlaygroundForEvil. Order opposes chaos... purely to win some unknown, possibly galaxy or universe wide conflict between the two, and doesn't give much of a crap about living creatures, including its own champion. But while order may ignore humanity and not lift a finger to help it unless chaos is involved, at least it's not looking to snuff it out either.
* The two masterminds behind Westerosi politics in ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire''. Lord Varys represents order, and his goals are restoring order to the Seven Kingdoms [[spoiler: by this, he means undoing Robert's revolution and returning the old dynasty to the throne]]. Lord "Littlefinger" Baelish represents chaos, and his goals are fomenting unrest and civil war and raising himself in society. Both are lethally dangerous, especially if your TV series counterpart is played by Sean Bean.
* In ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'', the ultimate representatives of order and chaos (the [[CelestialBureaucracy Auditors of Reality]] and the [[EldritchAbomination Things from the Dungeon Dimensions]] respectively) are both menaces whose victory would destroy the Disc. The Auditors deliberately try to destroy life and especially intelligence because it's bizarrely unpredictable and [[ObstructiveBureaucrat messes up their filing]], whereas the Things are simply too much crazy for the universe to contain.
* In the ''Literature/DragonKnight'' books, the [[BiggerBad Dark Powers']] constant goal is to tip the balance between the forces of History and Chaos, in either direction. The success of History would result in [[CreativeSterility complete]] [[MedievalStasis societal]] (and possibly [[TimeStandsStill temporal]]) stasis, while the victory of Chaos would shatter all authority and stability and leave the world a kaleidoscope of terror.
* ''Literature/HonorHarrington'' has the two main villains of the [[PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny People's Republic of Haven]] and the [[IndustrializedEvil Solarian League]]. The PRH didn't set out to be chaotic, but its constant disruption of leadership, ever more extreme ideology and habit of destroying anything that smells like tradition puts them firmly there. Meanwhile, the League's attempt to create a harmless legislature [[GoneHorriblyWrong instead created]] a VastBureaucracy, which by the time of the story was [[CorruptPolitician hideously corrupt]], fueled itself by [[PlanetLooters economically plundering frontier worlds]], and considered itself to be immovable and unstoppable.
*In ''Literature/TheLostFleet'', Geary comes to the conclusion that both extremes are dangerous ''to the user.'' TheAlliance's old way of a fleet of [[LeeroyJenkins unorganized lone wolves]] was plainly idiotic, but the perfect hierarchical order of the "[[AbsoluteXenophobe bear-cows]]" they encounter later is little better because it eliminates all initiative, so they can never have any ideas better than the herd-leader's.
-->''Too much discipline and too little discipline were two sides of the same disastrous coin, which could only purchase defeat.''
[[AC:LiveActionTV]]
* In ''Series/BabylonFive'' the Vorlons, representing Order, and the Shadows, representing Chaos, have been fighting a war for millennia and manipulating younger races into acting as their proxies. The series' MythArc concludes with [[spoiler:the Babylon 5 races collectively telling them to take their war and stick it where the sun don't shine, refusing to fight for them anymore.]]
-->'''Sheridan''': Now get the hell out of our galaxy!
* ''Series/{{Firefly}}'' and ''Film/{{Serenity}}'' end up implying this as a sort of AccidentalAesop. In the Core Worlds people are prosperous and live in relative luxury, at the cost of the Alliance controlling everything and being able to do virtually anything they can remotely justify--like [[PlayingWithSyringes experimenting on teenage girls]] and [[spoiler:using an entire planet as guinea pigs in a social engineering experiment GoneHorriblyWrong]]. On the Rim the Alliance has little presence. Life is much harder and more anarchic, but you can always look your enemy in the eye and settle things the old-fashioned way. The argument seems to be that ''a healthy society needs both''.
[[AC:TabletopGames]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'':
** The setting has Gods of Law as well as the more infamous Chaos Gods. But they're not particularly popular in setting (and thus [[GodsNeedPrayerBadly less powerful]]) because even TheEmpire considers them a bit extreme.
** One WellIntentionedExtremist vampire count tried to turn humans undead, which would free them from the influence of Chaos once and for all.
** The Slann, giant frog-like servants of the Old Ones (who planted life on the world and opposed Chaos) to their best to follow their disappeared master's plans. Unfortunately, while they're the best chance the world has against Chaos, their morality is so far removed from human's they sometimes do more harm than good (rearranging some mountain ranges, which completely destroyed the Dwarf empire inside).
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'':
** This time there's the forces of Chaos and the Necrons. The Chaos gods need life to exist, manifesting in disease, mutation, rape and mass murder. The Necrons are trying to destroy Chaos by annihilating all sentient life in the galaxy.
** The Imperium represents Order in that despite the ever worsening decay, they refuse to change in any way. The MachineWorship cult that services their machinery forbids any form of experimentation (to them all knowledge was once held by mankind, and must now be found rather than discovered) and unknowingly worship one of the Necron's gods.
** The Eldar, SpaceElves who have their own vendetta against the forces of Chaos and also represent (to a degree) the force of Order. However, they are incredibly elitist with prejudices against [[FantasticRacism almost every other race out there for being inferior to them]] and are so dogmatic that [[CantArgueWithElves they'll only listen to their own kind.]] But whereas the Imperium demonstrates a manifest destiny to conquer the universe at all costs, the Eldar are on an increasingly rapid descent from the greatness they once held (That is, until they brought about Slaanesh with their own depravity) and constantly struggle to survive.
* Players of ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' who play LawfulNeutral or ChaoticNeutral characters have a tendency to slip into LawfulEvil or ChaoticEvil. Though Chaotic Neutral is often misinterpreted as being batshit insane.
* The {{Druid}}s of ''TabletopGame/IronKingdoms'' believe if chaos or order gets too powerful, the god of the other side will destroy the material world to stop the other from drawing power for their endless battle. Currently they are spreading chaos because the rule of civilisation and law has become too strong.
[[AC:VideoGames]]
* In 'Franchise/MortalKombat'' there are the realms of Orderrealm and Chaosrealm. Orderrealm's characters consist of the {{Knight Templar}} Hotaru who aided the {{Big Bad}} of Deception, Onaga. Darius, a man rebelling against Orderrealm's establishment who set up the deaths of Dairou's family to get turn him against the Seidan Guard. And Dairou himself, a {{Hired Gun}} who is said to take jobs no matter how inhumane they are. From Chaosrealm there is Havik, who managed to help get Kabal back into the Black Dragon after he tried to reform, goes and aids Shao Kahn in his Deception ending, and is part of the Forces of Darkness in Armageddon. To say nothing of the Elder Gods, who have shown their share of questionable behavior, such as reviving Scorpion's clan as undead beings after fighting against Onaga in Deception.
*''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' has lawful vs chaotic alignments. The lawful alignment represents God, order, and security, and the chaotic alignment represents Lucifer, freedom, and war. At their extremes lawful characters want [[WorldOfSilence an elitist dictatorship ruled by God, with the few judged worthy of being alive under its rule doing nothing but worshiping Him for eternity]]. Extreme chaotic characters want a world of anarchy, unchecked vice, and endless war where [[TheSocialDarwinist strength is all that matters]]. You can also essentially say "[[OmnicidalNeutral screw]] [[{{Ubermensch}} everyone]]" and [[TakeAThirdOption chose the Neutral alignment]].
* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIVOblivion -- Shivering Isles'' has Sheogorath, Daedric Prince of Madness, and Jyggalag, Daedric Prince of Order. Sheogorath is as likely to treat you to a sumptuous banquet as he is to kill you in amusing ways ForTheLulz, while Jyggalag's idea of order is to turn the Shivering Isles into a lifeless wasteland where nothing ever does anything. [[spoiler:The trick is, ''they're the same guy'': the other daedric princes thought Jyggalag was too powerful and cursed him into spending most of his time as Sheogorath. He changes back once every few centuries and depopulates the Shivering Isles, then turns back into Sheogorath and rebuilds the place. But then the hero of Cyrodil frees Jyggalag from the cycle and becomes the new Sheogorath.]]
* In the ''Videogame/SoulSeries'', the Soul Edge is the central antagonist throughout the vast majority of the series. To combat its wanton murder, destruction and madness, many characters seek or wield its polar opposite, the Soul Calibur. However, in ''Soul Calibur IV'', it's revealed that Calibur is just as bad, in its own way. While the Edge seeks destruction, death, and ever-lasting torment, the Calibur wants stability, peace, and ever-lasting calm... by [[WorldOfSilence freezing the entire world over so that nothing can move]]. And the fifth game shows that it's not above manipulation or possession of its host to get its way, either.
[[AC:{{Webcomics}}]]
* ''Webcomic/DominicDeegan'': In the "Storm of Souls" storyline when a cult devoted to chaos threatened to consume the world it initially seemed that Dominic was the "Champion of Order" to counter their "Champion of Chaos". But later it was shown that the founder of the cult was once the Champion of Order as a brutal tyrant who sacrificed dozens of people to create a golem from their souls. Rather Dominic is the Champion of Balance, like Acibek the gestalt golem who turned against his creator.
* In the concluded webcomic [[http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/ Indefensible Positions]] the avatars of order and chaos are wizards who took on the personas of Generals Grant and Lee respectively. When Grant is first introduced he is preparing a ritual involving HumanSacrifice of sexual deviants in an attempt to reduce perversion, and Lee thinks 9/11 was a good thing.
* In ''Webcomic/The10Doctors'', the Tenth Doctor is given the choice of either siding with the White Guardian in establishing complete order or with the Black Guardian in establishing complete chaos. As both choices would lead to [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt the end of the Universe as we know it]], he, with a little help from [[TheNthDoctor his previous self]], advocates [[TakeAThirdOption a balance between order and chaos]].
[[AC:WesternAnimation]]
* The primary antagonists of ''WesternAnimation/{{Reboot}}'', Megabyte and Hexadecimal, represent order (possibly tyranny) and chaos (possibly anarchy), respectively.
** Later on in the series, there is Daemon, who despite being {{Affably Evil}}, aspires to control the net. She later does battle with Hexadecimal, who having gone through a {{Heel Face Turn}}, is fighting on the side of Mainframe.
** The contrast between order and chaos impacts the heroic side, too. Dot is more methodical and tries to solve problems through planning, while Bob is more impulsive and tends to lean towards the IndyPloy.
* Exemplified in the second half of ''WesternAnimation/LegendOfKorra'' by the last two primary antagonists. [[EnlightenedAntagonist Zaheer]] is an anarchist whose powers are tied to spiritual freedom. He wanted to free the people from (what he considered to be) tyrants, believing that chaos was the natural state of the world. [[ControlFreak Kuvira]] is a dictator who's hellbent on bringing a continent under her heel. She wanted to protect people who were suffering in the absence of a strong government, believing that any disruption to uniformity had to be crushed. Ironically, [[spoiler:Kuvira helped Korra bring down Zaheer in Book 3 and Zaheer helped Korra bring down Kuvira in Book 4]]. The title of the final book, as well as a major theme of the series overall, is "Balance", indicating going to either extreme is wrong.
----
--> -The Principia Discordia
OrderVsChaos is increasingly being used as an alternative to GoodVsEvil, but oftentimes it gets simplified to ChaosIsEvil, yet frequently Order is no better. Where Chaos has BombThrowingAnarchists, Order has the KnightTemplar. That's not to say that there are no ''good'' people on either side - but this trope is in effect whenever a good number of either sides are taking their "order" and "chaos" way too far.
If optimistic the work may present a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]] in the form of '''[[InternalSubtrope Balance Between Order And Chaos.]]'''
The creators can present the two sides of the conflict as DramaticallyMissingThePoint, and the ''Good'' thing is to TakeAThirdOption, by balancing the two extremes. Too much "order" would result in a static and unchanging world. Too much "chaos" would destroy it.
This works out to be a more understandable version of the BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil, because ''Good'' comes from the balance between the agents advocating conformity and the agents advocating individual choice, rather than some unspecified meaning of "balance". Creators can now use a MoralityKitchenSink of characters in the conflict, as both sides believe their side is morally correct behaviour. Often becomes classified as a GreyAndGrayMorality story.
See also:
* AllWorkVsAllPlay (All Work favoring Order, All Play favoring Chaos)
* FalseDichotomy, this work is averting the choice of Order or Chaos.
* GoldenMeanFallacy
* ShadesOfConflict
----
!!Examples:
[[AC:AnimeAndManga]]
* ''Anime/PsychoPass'' has the Sibyl System being Order and Shogo Makishima being Chaos. The Sibyl System has essentially removed almost all free will and individuality from society, and turned it into a "happier" version of ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'' where people have to be happy or calm, or else be arrested or killed just for thinking negatively once they step outside. Makishima despises the Sibyl System, and wants to free people from its control...but he also loves violence and the darker sides of humans, often finding ways to free people to commit the crimes they've imagined of but were forced to hide from the outside world in order to wonder about them. Oh, and Makishima also believes societal collapse is an admirable goal to work towards.
* ''Manga/OnePiece'': Pirates and KnightTemplar Marines seem to embody this. Pirates that aren't the Straw-Hats tend to terrorize and pillage, which is characteristic of them. However, some marines go to extreme measures to take down pirates and other criminals who go against justice.
* ''Manga/RurouniKenshin'': It's hard to say which side is better between the Isshin-Shishi and Shogunate. While the former group initially portrayed as freedom fighting, various characters such as Sanosuke note that power has only changed hands. Shishio seems to arguably be a product of this. The Shogunate, wanting to maintain their order, opposed the Isshin-Shishi and their tendencies show with KnightTemplar Saitou.
[[AC:ComicBooks]]
* From Franchise/TheDCU:
** Prominent villains SelfDemonstrating/LexLuthor and [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker Joker]] embody these opposite extremes. Lex seeks to stand above humanity and control them like a God, while Joker is completely chaotic and does whatever he wants.
** There's also the Lords of Order and Chaos, opposite ends of a BlueAndOrangeMorality scale who all consider themselves BeyondGoodAndEvil
* ''ComicBook/{{PS238}}'': When the forces of Chaos and Order (resembling demons and angels) find a way back to the earth they were barred from, they turn superheroes against their own children.
* Representatives from both Order and Chaos show up to try to claim Hell in ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', after Lucifer decides that he's done managing Hell and it's time to move on with his life. Neither comes off as better than the other: Order seems to suffer from quite a case of CreativeSterility, has slaves, and wants to make Hell into a more efficient realm, while the representative from Chaos incarnates as a psychopathic brat who threatens Dream with eternal war should he turn Hell over to anyone else, and later reveals that Chaos never really wanted Hell, but simply wanted to prevent Order from getting it.
* Averted in Creator/MarvelComics. Both Order and Chaos are good, or at least decent enough not to get in the way of things, most of the time, which compared to [[AGodAmI most]] [[BeyondGoodAndEvil cosmic]] [[MightMakesRight beings]] makes them "good".
* In the "Dead End Kids" arc of ''ComicBook/{{Runaways}}'', the team gets sent back in time to 1907, and finds themselves in the middle of a gang war between the Upward Path, who represent legal and religious authority, and the Sinners, who represent the various vices. The Runaways quickly realize that neither group would make good allies.
[[AC:FilmLiveAction]]
* This is the theme of ''Film/DemolitionMan'': A cop is brought from the past to enforce order but quickly shows everyone that strict order can be just as evil as absolute chaos. In the end, the two leaders that represent chaos and order find they have to negotiate with each other in order find a good balance.
* In ''WesternAnimation/TheLegoMovie'', Lord/President Business represents Order to a fault, wanting to keep all of the Lego realms separate and freeze them in place with the Kraggle so that their "perfection" can never be altered. [[CloudCuckooLander Cloudcuckooland]], a place with no rules, is initially presented as a preferable alternative, but main character Emmet ultimately finds a lot to admire in Lord Business' ambition and meticulous attention to detail [[spoiler:mirroring Finn's reconciliation with his father]]. At the end, a more threatening personification of Chaos invades: [[OutOfContextVillain the Duplo Planet]] [[spoiler:aka Finn's younger sister]].
[[AC:{{Literature}}]]
* In Creator/MichaelMoorcock's Eternal Champion sagas, it ultimately does not matter if the Champion serves Chaos or Law. In the end, every manifestation of the Champion - and the Eternal Enemy - discovers his purpose is to maintain the Balance, a state lying beyond Chaos and Law, two states which in their absolute form only bring sterility and barren endings. The champion Corum goes one further - he is the unwitting servant of the Great Old Ones, who physically destroy all the Gods of chaos and law, demonstrating that Mankind doesn't need them and must make its own way.
* In the 5 books focusing on Merlin in ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfAmber'', both the Pattern (the symbol of order) and its chaos counterpart the Logrus turn out to be sentient. They're both cold, inhuman forces willing to use the lives of its initiates like chess pieces as they try to win their battles with each other. [[spoiler:The second pattern that Corwin created has far more empathy for human life, however.]]
* In ''Literature/TheAdversaryCycle'' this is done in a manner somewhat similar to BlackAndGrayMorality. Chaos wants to destroy all indigenous life on Earth ToCreateAPlaygroundForEvil. Order opposes chaos... purely to win some unknown, possibly galaxy or universe wide conflict between the two, and doesn't give much of a crap about living creatures, including its own champion. But while order may ignore humanity and not lift a finger to help it unless chaos is involved, at least it's not looking to snuff it out either.
* The two masterminds behind Westerosi politics in ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire''. Lord Varys represents order, and his goals are restoring order to the Seven Kingdoms [[spoiler: by this, he means undoing Robert's revolution and returning the old dynasty to the throne]]. Lord "Littlefinger" Baelish represents chaos, and his goals are fomenting unrest and civil war and raising himself in society. Both are lethally dangerous, especially if your TV series counterpart is played by Sean Bean.
* In ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'', the ultimate representatives of order and chaos (the [[CelestialBureaucracy Auditors of Reality]] and the [[EldritchAbomination Things from the Dungeon Dimensions]] respectively) are both menaces whose victory would destroy the Disc. The Auditors deliberately try to destroy life and especially intelligence because it's bizarrely unpredictable and [[ObstructiveBureaucrat messes up their filing]], whereas the Things are simply too much crazy for the universe to contain.
* In the ''Literature/DragonKnight'' books, the [[BiggerBad Dark Powers']] constant goal is to tip the balance between the forces of History and Chaos, in either direction. The success of History would result in [[CreativeSterility complete]] [[MedievalStasis societal]] (and possibly [[TimeStandsStill temporal]]) stasis, while the victory of Chaos would shatter all authority and stability and leave the world a kaleidoscope of terror.
* ''Literature/HonorHarrington'' has the two main villains of the [[PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny People's Republic of Haven]] and the [[IndustrializedEvil Solarian League]]. The PRH didn't set out to be chaotic, but its constant disruption of leadership, ever more extreme ideology and habit of destroying anything that smells like tradition puts them firmly there. Meanwhile, the League's attempt to create a harmless legislature [[GoneHorriblyWrong instead created]] a VastBureaucracy, which by the time of the story was [[CorruptPolitician hideously corrupt]], fueled itself by [[PlanetLooters economically plundering frontier worlds]], and considered itself to be immovable and unstoppable.
*In ''Literature/TheLostFleet'', Geary comes to the conclusion that both extremes are dangerous ''to the user.'' TheAlliance's old way of a fleet of [[LeeroyJenkins unorganized lone wolves]] was plainly idiotic, but the perfect hierarchical order of the "[[AbsoluteXenophobe bear-cows]]" they encounter later is little better because it eliminates all initiative, so they can never have any ideas better than the herd-leader's.
-->''Too much discipline and too little discipline were two sides of the same disastrous coin, which could only purchase defeat.''
[[AC:LiveActionTV]]
* In ''Series/BabylonFive'' the Vorlons, representing Order, and the Shadows, representing Chaos, have been fighting a war for millennia and manipulating younger races into acting as their proxies. The series' MythArc concludes with [[spoiler:the Babylon 5 races collectively telling them to take their war and stick it where the sun don't shine, refusing to fight for them anymore.]]
-->'''Sheridan''': Now get the hell out of our galaxy!
* ''Series/{{Firefly}}'' and ''Film/{{Serenity}}'' end up implying this as a sort of AccidentalAesop. In the Core Worlds people are prosperous and live in relative luxury, at the cost of the Alliance controlling everything and being able to do virtually anything they can remotely justify--like [[PlayingWithSyringes experimenting on teenage girls]] and [[spoiler:using an entire planet as guinea pigs in a social engineering experiment GoneHorriblyWrong]]. On the Rim the Alliance has little presence. Life is much harder and more anarchic, but you can always look your enemy in the eye and settle things the old-fashioned way. The argument seems to be that ''a healthy society needs both''.
[[AC:TabletopGames]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'':
** The setting has Gods of Law as well as the more infamous Chaos Gods. But they're not particularly popular in setting (and thus [[GodsNeedPrayerBadly less powerful]]) because even TheEmpire considers them a bit extreme.
** One WellIntentionedExtremist vampire count tried to turn humans undead, which would free them from the influence of Chaos once and for all.
** The Slann, giant frog-like servants of the Old Ones (who planted life on the world and opposed Chaos) to their best to follow their disappeared master's plans. Unfortunately, while they're the best chance the world has against Chaos, their morality is so far removed from human's they sometimes do more harm than good (rearranging some mountain ranges, which completely destroyed the Dwarf empire inside).
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'':
** This time there's the forces of Chaos and the Necrons. The Chaos gods need life to exist, manifesting in disease, mutation, rape and mass murder. The Necrons are trying to destroy Chaos by annihilating all sentient life in the galaxy.
** The Imperium represents Order in that despite the ever worsening decay, they refuse to change in any way. The MachineWorship cult that services their machinery forbids any form of experimentation (to them all knowledge was once held by mankind, and must now be found rather than discovered) and unknowingly worship one of the Necron's gods.
** The Eldar, SpaceElves who have their own vendetta against the forces of Chaos and also represent (to a degree) the force of Order. However, they are incredibly elitist with prejudices against [[FantasticRacism almost every other race out there for being inferior to them]] and are so dogmatic that [[CantArgueWithElves they'll only listen to their own kind.]] But whereas the Imperium demonstrates a manifest destiny to conquer the universe at all costs, the Eldar are on an increasingly rapid descent from the greatness they once held (That is, until they brought about Slaanesh with their own depravity) and constantly struggle to survive.
* Players of ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' who play LawfulNeutral or ChaoticNeutral characters have a tendency to slip into LawfulEvil or ChaoticEvil. Though Chaotic Neutral is often misinterpreted as being batshit insane.
* The {{Druid}}s of ''TabletopGame/IronKingdoms'' believe if chaos or order gets too powerful, the god of the other side will destroy the material world to stop the other from drawing power for their endless battle. Currently they are spreading chaos because the rule of civilisation and law has become too strong.
[[AC:VideoGames]]
* In 'Franchise/MortalKombat'' there are the realms of Orderrealm and Chaosrealm. Orderrealm's characters consist of the {{Knight Templar}} Hotaru who aided the {{Big Bad}} of Deception, Onaga. Darius, a man rebelling against Orderrealm's establishment who set up the deaths of Dairou's family to get turn him against the Seidan Guard. And Dairou himself, a {{Hired Gun}} who is said to take jobs no matter how inhumane they are. From Chaosrealm there is Havik, who managed to help get Kabal back into the Black Dragon after he tried to reform, goes and aids Shao Kahn in his Deception ending, and is part of the Forces of Darkness in Armageddon. To say nothing of the Elder Gods, who have shown their share of questionable behavior, such as reviving Scorpion's clan as undead beings after fighting against Onaga in Deception.
*''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' has lawful vs chaotic alignments. The lawful alignment represents God, order, and security, and the chaotic alignment represents Lucifer, freedom, and war. At their extremes lawful characters want [[WorldOfSilence an elitist dictatorship ruled by God, with the few judged worthy of being alive under its rule doing nothing but worshiping Him for eternity]]. Extreme chaotic characters want a world of anarchy, unchecked vice, and endless war where [[TheSocialDarwinist strength is all that matters]]. You can also essentially say "[[OmnicidalNeutral screw]] [[{{Ubermensch}} everyone]]" and [[TakeAThirdOption chose the Neutral alignment]].
* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIVOblivion -- Shivering Isles'' has Sheogorath, Daedric Prince of Madness, and Jyggalag, Daedric Prince of Order. Sheogorath is as likely to treat you to a sumptuous banquet as he is to kill you in amusing ways ForTheLulz, while Jyggalag's idea of order is to turn the Shivering Isles into a lifeless wasteland where nothing ever does anything. [[spoiler:The trick is, ''they're the same guy'': the other daedric princes thought Jyggalag was too powerful and cursed him into spending most of his time as Sheogorath. He changes back once every few centuries and depopulates the Shivering Isles, then turns back into Sheogorath and rebuilds the place. But then the hero of Cyrodil frees Jyggalag from the cycle and becomes the new Sheogorath.]]
* In the ''Videogame/SoulSeries'', the Soul Edge is the central antagonist throughout the vast majority of the series. To combat its wanton murder, destruction and madness, many characters seek or wield its polar opposite, the Soul Calibur. However, in ''Soul Calibur IV'', it's revealed that Calibur is just as bad, in its own way. While the Edge seeks destruction, death, and ever-lasting torment, the Calibur wants stability, peace, and ever-lasting calm... by [[WorldOfSilence freezing the entire world over so that nothing can move]]. And the fifth game shows that it's not above manipulation or possession of its host to get its way, either.
[[AC:{{Webcomics}}]]
* ''Webcomic/DominicDeegan'': In the "Storm of Souls" storyline when a cult devoted to chaos threatened to consume the world it initially seemed that Dominic was the "Champion of Order" to counter their "Champion of Chaos". But later it was shown that the founder of the cult was once the Champion of Order as a brutal tyrant who sacrificed dozens of people to create a golem from their souls. Rather Dominic is the Champion of Balance, like Acibek the gestalt golem who turned against his creator.
* In the concluded webcomic [[http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/ Indefensible Positions]] the avatars of order and chaos are wizards who took on the personas of Generals Grant and Lee respectively. When Grant is first introduced he is preparing a ritual involving HumanSacrifice of sexual deviants in an attempt to reduce perversion, and Lee thinks 9/11 was a good thing.
* In ''Webcomic/The10Doctors'', the Tenth Doctor is given the choice of either siding with the White Guardian in establishing complete order or with the Black Guardian in establishing complete chaos. As both choices would lead to [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt the end of the Universe as we know it]], he, with a little help from [[TheNthDoctor his previous self]], advocates [[TakeAThirdOption a balance between order and chaos]].
[[AC:WesternAnimation]]
* The primary antagonists of ''WesternAnimation/{{Reboot}}'', Megabyte and Hexadecimal, represent order (possibly tyranny) and chaos (possibly anarchy), respectively.
** Later on in the series, there is Daemon, who despite being {{Affably Evil}}, aspires to control the net. She later does battle with Hexadecimal, who having gone through a {{Heel Face Turn}}, is fighting on the side of Mainframe.
** The contrast between order and chaos impacts the heroic side, too. Dot is more methodical and tries to solve problems through planning, while Bob is more impulsive and tends to lean towards the IndyPloy.
* Exemplified in the second half of ''WesternAnimation/LegendOfKorra'' by the last two primary antagonists. [[EnlightenedAntagonist Zaheer]] is an anarchist whose powers are tied to spiritual freedom. He wanted to free the people from (what he considered to be) tyrants, believing that chaos was the natural state of the world. [[ControlFreak Kuvira]] is a dictator who's hellbent on bringing a continent under her heel. She wanted to protect people who were suffering in the absence of a strong government, believing that any disruption to uniformity had to be crushed. Ironically, [[spoiler:Kuvira helped Korra bring down Zaheer in Book 3 and Zaheer helped Korra bring down Kuvira in Book 4]]. The title of the final book, as well as a major theme of the series overall, is "Balance", indicating going to either extreme is wrong.
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