This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
whitetigah: please stop going into thread mode in the main entry. I'm sure you can find a way to work whatever you're adding into the page as it is.
Platinum Hawke: Took Soma out of the Emotionless Girl trope, since she doesn't really fit it as well as Feldt does. She has a vanity streak/superiority complex, as can be seen in her first fight against Virtue, along with a short fuse when dealing with Allelujah during the military exercises. Seems closer to being the Quiet One at this point in time.
Marikina: I don't think the destruction of the HRL's super soldier facility counts as Rape The Dog moment, especially for Allelujah. He was extremely reluctant to perform the deed, and even wanted to take in the child soldiers; it was the sociopath Hallelujah that advocated their deaths, and even he justified it as putting them out of their misery, and that if Allelujah wasn't going to do it, he would take over and do the job himself (and he might have done so anyway, judging by the aftermath). Not to mention the public condemnation of the HRL and the image boost that Celestial Being purportedly received after the incident was exposed. All in all, I'd say the incident was more of a Shoot the Dog moment, the way it all played out.
Uknown Troper: And I counter: First of all, Allelujah planned it. Allelujah made the mission profile, he subjected it to his command, and claimed, upon being asked by Sumeragi about it, that 'it was ok'. At no point does he consider the humanitarian concerns of blowing up a building full of children until he starts wangsting about it with his finger on the button. He shows no later remorse about his actions either; in fact, the only time it's brought up in a later episode is by the HLR super-soldier, who shows a rather (justified) anger over what he did. Secondly, of the two results of the projects, the one actually working for the HLR is shown as completely sane and well-adjusted, except for her psychotic reaction to Allelujah, which leads me to conclude that Hallelujah's angle of 'putting them out of their misery' is misleading at best. Keep in mind that Allelujah is psychotic and has used his Split Personality to murder other children previously. The fact that they were created against UN resolutions is not in any way conceivable the fault of the children the project produced, which makes the fact that Celestial Being's treatment of the situation is to kill them all all the more morally dissonant. And finally, this troper already felt that Gundam 00's trigger-happy killing of soldiers just doing their jobs left and right was somewhat unsettling, to which blowing up a building full of children that might become soldiers later, gene-boosted or no, was the titular flood that washed away the glass and shattered it against the rocky cliffs of 'way over the line'. If they wanted to present that as a Shoot the Dog for Celestial Being, they failed spectacularly. It wasn't 'the guts to do that had to be done', it was wholesale slaughter of civilians that could have been avoided by Allelujah not suggesting they do so in the first place and perhaps crafting a mission profile involving a more elegant solution to the problem.
robodood: Al made it quite clear that the children had no future outside of being used as weapons. And, given all the moral wrangling Al had over it, it certainly wasn't a Rape The Dog moment — seeing how those are saved for undeniable acts of gratuitous villainy. It certainly is deniable, in at least 2 tropers' opinions on this very page. Certainly nothing equaling Nena or Ali's moments. I still can't see it as anything other than Shoot the Dog or I Did What I Had to Do, at worst.
whitetigah: took out the Xanatos Roulette bit, since the way I see it Schenberg simply set the plan into motion by creating the GN drives, then left everything in the hands of Celestial Being (as evinced by the fact that CB needs a tactician to properly do its job of bringing peace to the world). Furthermore, the Trans-Am system was probably created as a backup plan should the original one have failed. Because of this, Aeolia doesn't fall into neither Xanatos Gambit nor Xanatos Roulette territory (but I'm willing to admit this interpretation is subjective).
Laevatein: Does Nena's brothers being killed really count as Hoist by His Own Petard? It might be poetic justice, but I thought it would only qualify for that if their deaths were caused by her own actions.
Starseeker: I put it there because I couldn't think of any other karmic retribution type tropes. If you can think of a better one then by all means move it there.
Laevatein: Would Karmic Death fit?
Chris X: Isn't Karmic Death was about if the DOER itself that was killed? If it was Karmic Death, the scenario would be Nena herself dying, not her brothers. Besides, Hoist by His Own Petard fits Nena well. How did she execute the Rape The Dog on Louise? She did not kill Louise, but instead killed her parents, even though she wasn't targeting them on purpose, nor did she plan to make Louise lose one of her arms. And then Ali delivered something similar and worse to her, he killed Johann and Michael, on purpose. So the conclusion is, Nena's petard was 'killing people close to certain someone, without killing the said someone', and Ali hoisted it back on her, he killed people close to her without killing her (he was about to kill her, though, until Setsuna interrupted).
Uknown Troper: Just how much of a Magnificent Bastard is Ali anyhow? He doesn't seem to be the one pulling the strings, he's just someone's dragon and very badass. Same with Schenberg, really: He isn't much of a bastard — more of The Chessmaster, methinks. Corner may still fit, though, depending on how much turns out to actively his doing.
whitetigah: I don't know about Aeolia, but Ali certainly qualifies: in my opinion he's not The Dragon — he probably doesn't even know who Corner is — but follows his own agenda (which is still unknown, except for the "plunge the world into perpetual warfare" part). And to further that agenda he got a government to hand him a state-of-the-art Mobile Armour, betrayed and killed Lagna Harvey, managed to decieve the Trinitys long enough to kill Michael, wound Johann and steal Throne Zwei, then allied himself with the UN to take the fight to Celestial Being... That's what a Magnificent Bastard does.
Uknown Troper: If you say so. I just think he's altogether too... Hands-on. Ali kind of lacks Chessmaster cred and Xanatos Gambit usage to me, not to mention that he has no minions of his own.
Recon5: He's a Blood Knight if you ask me.
Marikina: Given what he said in episode 25, does Graham merit consideration for Blood Knight status?
whitetigah: I think so. He's not on Ali's level (i.e.: not actively trying to stir up revolutions and such only to have someone to fight against), but he actually went looking for Exia just so he could fight it; therefore, he definitely qualifies as somebody who lives for battle, which is the definition of a Blood Knight.
Necromas: The fight in question
whitetigah: Removed:
- Wouldn't Graham's...confession be more in that vein? Then again, Graham always seemed a bit too cuckoo for comfort...
Aero: The entry for Ali under Expy is questionable, at least in regards to its comparison to Gauron. As far as I've seen, Gauron is just an Ax-Crazy whose sole desire is to kill as many people as possible while Ali's is to see that warfare does not end (which would take away his job and source of enjoyment). In this respect, along with his status as Badass Normal he really resembles Yazan Gable from Zeta Gundam more than Gauron. The distinction is that Gauron loves murder and chaos for no apparent reason while Ali loves conflict itself.
whitetigah: I agree, but the entry isn't for Ali, it's for Setsuna, and the Setsuna/Ali interactions are almost the same as the Sosuke/Gauron ones: therefore, I think this should stay in the article.
Uknown Troper: Removed the awesome thingie. I mean, I know this show is new and all, but every show has examples of this (which isn't really a trope all) depending on who you ask. It also took up a lot of space.
whitetigah: Moved the whole block to Crowning Moment Of Awesome Mecha Anime.
Marikina: Removed the Magnificent Bastard entry. Ali Al Saachez simply doesn't qualify.
whitetigah: I wonder, does Corner really qualify as A God Am I? He doesn't believe he's a god, he simply wants to Take Over the World.
MikoGalatea: Has it actually been confirmed that the masked man we see in episode 25's epilogue isn't Graham? I haven't seen anything definite to point towards that...
Aero: An interview with Mizushima (the director) had him say that both the first Lockon Stratos and Graham Acre are dead. While this is a Gundam show (and thus, people don't die unless they are older mentor figures), it's pretty obvious that the director taken great pains to red herring or subvert a lot of the typical Gundam tropes so it actually might not be Graham. One theory, to which some people including myself ascribe is that it's actually a cyborg or artifically gestated memory clone of Graham, if it is in fact not him. It's not implausible given the in-universe medical tech and the same concept was used quite effective in the SRW series, ala Wodan Ymir.
MikoGalatea: Just how much of a Draco in Leather Pants is Nena, really? Given that she's the resident Scrappy, she obviously doesn't have a lot of fans (not in English-speaking fandom anyway, and I think it was Rie Kugimiya's voicework that got the character so high on the Newtype rankings anyway). The fans she does have, meanwhile, fully accept that she's an evil loony and don't make her nastiest actions out to be OMG SO AWESOME like I see a lot of Ali fanboys do. It just feels like one or two people here can't stand the idea of others having any kind of tolerance for Nena, is all.
Synaesthetic: I don't exactly consider Nena's scrappydom as her own fault. The writers really blew it here, I think. Her name just sounds badass, she has a very attractive character design and most of all, she's voiced by Rie Kugimiya. Nena is a hard aversion of Kugimiya's work, definitely not her usual Tsundere loli. And the writers wrote her very, very poorly.
Chris X: Uh... so now Nena has been listed as a Meido. But I don't see her wearing Meido outfit, she's just a bit closer to Liu Mei's Battle Butler, or Ninja Maid without the outfit. If anyone has a screenshot of Nena wearing a Meido outfit, please provide it here.
The following's been cut from the Double Standard entry:
- To be fair nobody liked the Trinitys in the first place and for one to randomly attack some innocent people, which just came out of nowhere isn't going to help. While on the other hand with Ali it was was well established he was an asshole and awesome.
- Being an asshole of Ali's caliber is NOT awesome by any means. He's one of the most dispicable antagonists in the whole Gundam franchise; just because half the fanbase jerks off to his piloting skills doesn't mean we have to forget he's a Complete Monster. At least Nena fans (yes, those DO exist) do NOT forget she's a psychotic, bitchy and Yandere-ish Dark Action Girl, whereas Ali fans handwave his horrendous actions because he's OMG SO Bad Ass and even bash his victims (not only the Trinities, but poor Kinue as well).
About the double standard: Ali is loved not just because he's a ruthless psychopathic killer, but also because it's perceived that he ignores plot armor. After the failure that was Destiny and its resurrection of the dead and FLAWLESS VICTORY from Jesus, its refreshing for many people to see a threatening antagonist. Just my take on this matter, anyway.
Orihime: Took Chickification out. It's too early to tell if Soma will or not be really chickificated (then we'll see if there's true Chickification or not). Yes, Soma will need time to adjust herself to CB, but that doesn't necessarily equal to her being "demoted" or "weakened", and automatically starting to complain whenever an Action Girl needs some time out is *stupid*.
Is there a trope for how L-Lockon/Anew would parallel N-Lockon/Tieria? I can't believe the writers didn't have the similarities in mind...
Marikina: Removed Deus ex Machina again. Trans Am Burst was not an Ass Pull, and the series had been building up to it. If you want to file it under Wall Banger or God-Mode Sue, that's another story.
Guillaume HJ: Added Ribbons (S 2 E 24, you know the part I mean) to hoisted by his own petard. And removing Nena from Stuffed into the Fridge . Nena was a major character in her own right, killed by Louise, another major character (and arguably the less villainous of the two), whose entire family Nena had previously wiped out. And that happenedd an entire season after the murders in question, during which time Nena had her own family murdered before her eyes, and seconds after she killed a woman who was tangentially involved with the murderers. And after the writers spent several episodes establishing that, you know, Louise was out for revenge against Celestial Being in general and the Gundam that killed her family (Nena's) specifically. If that's Stuffing into the fridge, every last death of every last character in every last work of fiction ever (except old Uncle Grigor whom nobody ever saw, cared about, who left nobody anything in his testament and might as well never have existed) is stuffing into the fridge.
MikoGalatea: I agree about Nena. She was established well enough as a character beforehand, and she didn't really have any plot threads of her own left hanging (except Ali, some might say, but he had enough people wanting his head on a platter anyway). Her death did not cut short any subplots like Kinue's, nor was she treated solely as a plot device like Anew, so I don't see how she ever counted as being a fridge stuffing.
I'm not really sure if Emilio counts for the trope, either. Actually, do backstory deaths ever qualify for fridge-stuffing status, unless they're especially egregious?
Hellcat Ace: I'm contesting the wall banger status of the trans-am burst and setsuna's god mod sue status due to said action. Sure, its a bit out there, but is it really any stranger than a half dozen GHOSTS showing up and powering up a mech like in the finale of zeta gundam? All it really did was make everyone telepathic. As for it fixing everything, when you get right down to it, it really just opened everyone up a bit, again, not any weirder than a lot of the newtype stuff seen in the old UC series, Heck, maybe a little less out there.
Madonis: In response to that I'd argue that Zeta had its fair share of God Mod Sue-ing from K/Camille (which isn't necessarily that bad of a thing) and Wall Banging as well. Just that a lot of people seem to either view them with nostalgia or throw them into the dark reaches of space. Few dare point them out since Zeta is, you know, the sacred cow of Gundam. Besides, I think Wall Banging is especially relevant to how the Internet fanbase has reacted in a not universally positive manner, to say the least. Some people think it's fine if not great, others hate it...and as for me, I want to see how the ending deals with its fallout (or not).
Also, I wouldn't call Nena a major character by any stretch of the imagination, but I suppose you could argue Wang was closer to being stuffed into a fridge than she was (since Wang got all 3/4s of her development like...seconds to minutes before dying).
Charred Knight: I consider it a Wall Banger just because it looks like they where intentionally writing it to be as big a Deus ex Machina as possible. I mean everyone is losing than a bunch of Pixie Dust come out and now not only is everyone a better pilot, but three characters do immediate Heel–Face Turn with one person basically being a complete ass for the past few episodes.
Guillaume HJ: While I can live with Wall Banger (I can see how it would have been that to some people), I think your version of events fail to account for one thing - we've been seeing those particles (not on this scale, but we've been seeing them) since episode 11 of this season. And all the effects they had in episode 24 were seen previously.
It counteracted Louise and Lasse's red particle poisoning: Ribbons wondered earlier this season whether the 00 could do that (as an explanation why Setsuna wasn't dead from his own red particle wound). It allowed Billy and Sumeragi (for one) and Soma and Andrei (for another) to have telepathy sessions: we've seen those plenty of time during season II (and that actually comparing notes would do a lot of people in 00 a lot of good has been noted on this page for several episodes). It messed with Ribbons's quantum brainwave (and therefore his Veda link and mind-control of Louise): we've seen those in a past episode as well (though I'm drawing a blank as to which it was). It woke up Allelujah's "Hal" personality, making him into the monster pilot we all missed (the only case where the particles made someone a better pilot): again, we knew the 00 particles would wake Allelujah since episode 11.
In effect, the 00 particles did nothing we hadn't seen them do before. They just affected a lot more people at once than we had previously seen. Pixie dust, perhaps, but Pixie dust of which all the effects had been previously shown.
Charred Knight: Nobody is arguing about the magical abilites of Pixie Dust, the complaints are about how it was used to solve all the problems of the episode.
Marikina: It did what was foreshadowed it was going to do. Which brings us back to how can this be construed as "going wrong" as per the trope definition.
Guillaume HJ: As I said. Wall banger it can be depending on taste, but the "pixie dust" doing exactly what it was foreshadowed to do is sort of...not particularly a deus ex, and certainly not "as big a deus ex as possible". The only vaguely deus ex aspect of it all is the 00 having the ability to spread its pixie dust much further than we thought. And given how it fits with the existing pieces of the Xanatos Roulette (Aeolia's, I mean)...yeah. If it's a Deus Ex, it's the Fridge Brilliance variant of Deus ex, where it seems out of the blue at first (depending on your selection of epileptic trees), but actually fits in fairly well when you put the pieces together.
Guillaume HJ: Given that episode 18 pretty much says Kati has gone missing and the A-LAWS are sending the Security Bureau (eg, secret police) after her, it would surprise me if she were somehow flying their supply ships four episodes later, so I took that part out.
Synaesthetic: Why is Nena considered yandere? Every other yandere character I've seen has been rendered Ax-Crazy through Love Makes You Crazy or Love Makes You Evil. Most yandere are stable until someone makes a move on the person they're in love with, leading them to possibly Murder the Hypotenuse. Nena's brothers may be her Berserk Button, but she's not exactly stable or "dere" even before the buttons are pushed. Plus Nena isn't actually pursuing a romantic relationship with anyone; the closest she gets is the kiss when she first meets Setsuna. She just seems plain Ax-Crazy.
J: I removed the remark about the mass produced Flags and Enacts from the Brother Chuck example, since Flags and Enacts both show up in Season 2 still in use by Katharon and the main Federation military.
Is there a reason the Bus Crash reguarding Sergei bit was removed? S Hould it have been spoilered or cleaned up in any way. but when he was retired, that screamed Put on a Bus to me, and then he didn't even get a final battle, he just sort of died on a ship if I'm recalling right. Also the bit with Graham being Put on a Bus could be valid as well, as both Mr. Bushido and Sergei didn't matter as much as Ali and Ribbons towards the end.
whitetigah: Simply put, that's not the trope you were looking for. Put on a Bus is for when a character is absent from the story for unspecified reasons (Sergei was still present, though little, until his death); Bus Crash is for when a character who had been previously been Put on a Bus is killed, offscreen, and a casual remark about his death is dropped in the show (Sergei didn't die offscreen, he was murdered killed — sorry, still bitter about that — by his no-good son on-screen). The tropes you are looking for are probably Out of Focus (for when Sergei isn't in the spotlight) and Killed Off for Real (for when he was, well, Killed Off for Real). Feel free to re-add the entry under the correct tropes. (Also, it's probably better to put it under a spoiler, since some people might not have seen that scene yet.)
priopraxis on "Qurac"...Azadistan was(briefly) a real place, and appears to be an Iranian empire with a name change.Does it still qualify as "Qurac" ?
Balesirion: I'm moving the Continuity Nod examples to Mythology Gag, where they belong.
