Discussion YMMV / XenobladeChronicles3

Yeah, I felt the entry in its original form was pretty specious, since the game does strongly hint at the true identity of the sword. Nevertheless, if other creators were also confused, I think it might count as a mild example, or at least mainly the second half of it.

Thanks for answering, but maybe I came up with something else in Future Redeemed discussion if you wanna take it there

It's not, it's a pretty clear case of the "large current events" form of misuse that often comes up with Hindsight tropes. We actually have been having an ongoing issue in the cleanup thread with people shoehorning references to such events, one of which was Queen Elizabeth II's death, others being COVID and the Ukraine invasion, so it should probably go since there are no similarities to Elizabeth II other than "royal person dying", which is not noteworthy in and of itself.

Figures, it would be pretty out of nowhere for her to suddenly be revealed to be anything but the counterpart to robot Melia.

It's not impossible she's organic in nature because of how Agnian technology might work but I don't think they indicate it either way.

There's a fan theory I've seen floating around that fake!Nia might be a living body double rather than a robot. The main points being that A: we never see her unmasked so there's no visual confirmation of being robotic, B: X is shown controlling her via Iris like Moebius typically do with Agnian/Kevesi soldiers (something N notably doesn't seem to do with fake!Melia), and C: she's much more animated than fake!Melia, screaming in what sounds like pain when aforementioned Iris control happens.

But the thing is, while I do think there's a certain amount of merit to the theory (though I'm not 100% convinced).... either way it is just a theory with no explicit confirmation. And frankly, even if it were ever to be confirmed, the example would still be shoehorned "current events exist" misuse regardless.

Main issue criticism I see of it is that it draws Aggro via Taunting, which is not useful past the midgame due to enemy debuff resistance, just like Guardian Commander. Usually the praise for Heavy Guard comes from its built-in Topple, but so does Guardian Commander.

I agree it isn't great, but I don't think it becomes a LTS because of the early game role it plays. Guardian Commander isn't gained early enough to avoid the flaws compared to Heavy Guard, which also has the benefit of not relying on the Awakening buff.

Basically, I think it isn't great, but it doesn't fit LTS because it is a Crutch Character that lacks the same faults as Guardian Commander.

I think for that reason any of the starting classes shouldn't qualify as LTS because of the way the game is designed, but thats a different topic.

I feel like this is sort of an issue I've seen a lot in the Xenoblade fandom, people judge characters and classes entirely based on the lategame/postgame tier, when you're fighting superbosses and building the most optimized setups. And they totally ignore the dozens of hours of gameplay you go through to even reach that point.

Heavy Guard's not great, but early on it's one of your only Defender options, and it offers some helpful utility (it's probably the best early Topple setup). Early-mid game Heavy Guard is perfectly usable. Heck, even the Low-Tier Letdown entry itself admits that it can do its job well enough, it's just eventually outclassed. I vote cut it.

I agree. I think it gets lumped in on the basis of being a Defender, and Defenders in this game aren't great. It doesn't account for the fact it is the main tank you get for a while, and it is a reliable early game role. By contrast, Guardian Commander is optional but doesn't offset its flaws by early acquirement and has a gimmick that it cannot properly use.

LTS should be about things that are so bad, using it is impractical, or it is actively a handicap, and Heavy Gunner doesn't fit either of those.

Fair enough, a general entry that mentions the problems with Defenders as a category (and possibly specific blurbs for individual classes' issues) should suffice. In that case, which other entries should we remove?

I'm guessing Tactician can be similarly deleted on the basis of it being a Crutch Character class given to you at the start when debuffs are still reliable. Likewise, the entry for Shulk itself admits that, while there's no reason not to use Ashera over him if you have her (and you almost certainly will given that he's endgame-only), having not-as-good versions of Ashera's bonuses still makes him useful by overall Hero standards.

Stalker, Triton, and Juniper are definite keeps IMO as their issues are well-known. Triton's bonus can be actively harmful, while Stalker/Juniper are mandatory unlocks that are immediately outclassed by any of the others you automatically get in the story up to that point, even before factoring in the optional ones.

Machine Assassin is probably a keep since it's a late-game class by necessity and its gimmick is pretty useless at that point. It's impractical to set up without the Signet Ring, but from what I've heard, the Signet Ring does do a great job of increasing the success rate of its debuff gimmick for however much that's worth.

Thaumaturge is probably a keep as well, since as the entry points out it's not very good at its main job of healing. At the same time it and Guardian Commander are available as soon as Chapter 3 and it's your only early-game source of Burst, which might give it too much time-sensitive utility to qualify.

Triton, Juniper, and Stalker are all keeps, yeah. They're just bad, ranging from impractically gimmicky to "please use literally anything else".

Tactician is, I'd say, probably cut since you can get some use out of it before debuffs become irrelevant. Machine Assassin however does not have that excuse, easy keeper, it's just obtained too late for its central mechanic to actually work.

Thaumaturge I'm not sure, it tries to be a healer/dps hybrid and fails badly at both, but the fact you don't get any Burst alternatives until much later might technically give it enough utility? It's a weird one.

Shulk I honestly think could keep, I haven't used him in the main game, only in Future Redeemed, but I got the impression he was less like Ashera, and more like Zeon but with evade instead of block. And being comparable to Zeon is.... not great. And unlike in the DLC, in the main game he doesn't have the excuse of being a mandatory party member.

Future Redeemed already has its own separate YMMV page where that's covered. This is for the base game, meaning Shulk's entry pertains strictly to his performance as an unlockable Hero after you beat the Challenge against him and Rex.

The issue with the entry is that the way it's written is very self-defeating and admits that he comes with a couple of attributes that, even if he is overshadowed by Ashera, are still very good on their own in isolation. So while there's basically no gameplay reason you would ever use him over her specifically (outside of Gauntlet mode), and he might be regarded as underwhelming for a postgame unlock, a Break Art and a Damage Ratio boost still put him over a decent chunk of the Hero roster who have neither.

Part of me is still debating Thaumaturge, as even though its your earliest available Burst and you can unlock it almost near the beginning, the fact that said Burst is a Talent Art makes it hard to actually use when you need it, and thus not very useful to have at that point either. Burst has weak utility in combat and it's more valuable for farming item drops for crafting gems, which isn't really something players do until the lategame, at which point they've already unlocked Troubadour's much better regular art.

I think a general "Defender" one is fine. Primarily it should mention that its moreso the game mechanics causing the issues, and it can mention why most classes don't work with that role. I think the only thing to note is why most Defenders aren't good in relation to the way the mechanics work.

I think Thaumaturge is fine being removed primarily because it provides decent skills that a lot of classes really benefit from. For it to be a LTS, it would need to provide nothing of value and doesn't work in any form. It isn't great, but what it can provide passively and skill wise is enough to make worth getting and leveling, and thats not mentioning Burst as was stated previously.

I think because Shulk is an optional Hero who you have to do a lot of work to get, he's more a Bragging Rights Reward. He's not that good in FR because he's mandatory and limited by the DLC gameplay, but since he's extremely optional, I think that doesn't warrant LTS.

Tactician's similar to Heavy Guard, since its a starting class that you have to rely on for a while to get through the game. If it was one you unlocked later, I'd say it is valid to list it, but it being a starting class gives it a degree of "Yeah you use this for a while and then move past it".

I agree about Triton, Juniper, and Stalker. I think any Hero and Class that are a LTS can be semi-condensed into one entry since the two share the same problems, and just need to mention the unique differences between Hero and Class.

I'd rather keep Juniper and Stalker separate, because a lot of what makes Juniper considered a LTS is not entirely related to the Stalker class's issues. It comes down to them having terrible Chain Attack bonuses, unique arts being slow even compared to the Stalker's, and the fact that they are an Attacker, whereas when it comes to Heroes in the Healer and Defender categories (in contrast to the issue with Defender classes for the main party), even the worst ones bring some additional utility just by nature of being in that category at all.

Triton, Juniper, and Shulk are the only Heroes listed there anyway, right? Shulk's already been discussed (and his class isn't usable by anyone else regardless). Juniper, I agree with Alley, their issues are sorta distinct from Stalker in general.

And then Triton is an even more extreme version of that, part of his problem is that he's totally different from the Soulhacker on anyone else, to the point where he doesn't even have access to the class's core mechanic at all. He has to be listed separately since Soulhacker's not a scrappy and he's such a completely different beast.

So what entries would even be condensed?

I don't think there is anything else worth reviewing, the suggested changes are the main things I think need to be adjusted.

No? You need the Memetic part for it to apply and it is not a common opinion in the fandom to treat him as a rapist or molester.

The contrast is that, while being good biological parents to the children you helped to bring about in the first place is the ideal, Panacea and Linka who had good adoptive parents are shown to be decent people and more well-adjusted than Shania, who had bad biological parents and turned out a mess, and the Reid and Cassini Founders' plaques highlight their good parentage of them as a virtue. There is also a sidequest in FR where one of the City people you rescue declares their intent to create an orphanage where all children can be loved and cared for, regardless of whether they biologically-related to anyone.

It's not a major message, but the fact that it's present means it counts as a message, and it is something I've seen queer fans online praise about it, since there is a lot of other media out there that has the message that the abusive parent was misguided and that the abused child should try to reconcile anyway, but this game treats Shania's mother as a lost cause, which is something that folks who have experience with queerphobic parents agree more with.

Maybe, I'd need to rewatch the cutscene, but it seemed like he did have limits.

Based on my observations of fandom discussion, I can't think of anything I'd categorize as a Broken Base that isn't already fileable under Contested Sequel, which I've written a draft of below based on a previous example that was previously nuked for being NREP among other issues:

• Contested Sequel: While this game is considered a major step up from the past two numbered entries in terms of gameplay, polish, and presentation, the quality of other aspects like the more muted and somber soundtrack, the graphically impressive and wide-open but also less unique map designs, and especially the writing are much more heavily debated by fans, with fans highlighting the strength of the character and sidequest writing and the heavyhanded yet pertinent social commentary, while detractors pan the villains and criticize the overarching plot for being both simpler and less well-explained than in past games.

I've also drafted entries for what I consider to be the most obvious candidates for Base-Breaking Character below:

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Noah is the most divisive of the main six party members, with opinions split between those who consider him one of the best written characters and an extremely compelling Tragic Hero whose Only Sane Man disposition makes him a strong grounding presence and wise Warrior Poet, and those who consider these same traits to make him a featureless Vanilla Protagonist who is less compelling than the rest of the party and whose focus shortchanges the arcs of other characters like Mio. Much of the debate centers on Noah's juxtaposition with his Foil and Evil Counterpart N, a past incarnation who made very different life choices and ultimately went off the deep end, and how it either enriches Noah's character greatly with the additional context it adds, or diminishes him by highlighting his own lack of personality and sequestering what could've been his most compelling qualities onto a separate character.
  • Ghondor. Half the fandom adores her for her extremely rude and in-your-face Sir Swears-a-Lot attitude, which is hilariously awesome in a Crosses the Line Twice way, and her developments in Sena's Side Story are an interesting deconstruction of her character flaws that makes her more understandable and sympathetic. The other half finds her Jerkass behavior unbearable and too unsympathetic, making her a Jerkass who actively drove Shania off the deep end without being called out for it to the extent she deserves. Her English voice acting is also a significant contributing factor, dividing fans between those who find her entertainingly hammy and over-the-top, and those who find her annoying or poorly-acted compared to the rest of the otherwise-praised dub.
  • Shania, big time. Either she's a huge Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds whose Face–Heel Turn and Freudian Excuse for doing so are some of the most compelling character beats in the story, or the justification for her Going Postal makes her come off as even more pathetic in the face of people who have gone through worse suffering in their Crapsack World yet did not lash out the way she did. There's also debates about whether the story does a good job of handling her fall from grace in such a way that it explains her actions without trying too hard to justify them, or if it leans too far into making excuses and making her Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Another reason she's so divisive is that her quarrels with Ghondor consume much of the Ascension Quest for Sena, who is already perceived as getting less plot focus than the rest of the main party, making both Ghondor and Shania come off as a Spotlight-Stealing Squad.

Let me know what you think of these examples. I considered Sena as another BBC candidate, but while the fandom is divided fairy evenly between those who love her and those who view her as a weak link, people aren't as passionate about said opinions as they do for these three. Also, for what it's worth, I've casually perused Japanese fans' accounts to gauge how they might feel about some things, and I noticed they seem to be roughly on the same page for Noah. Meanwhile they don't really bring up Ghondor or Shania much so it's harder to tell on that end.

I feel like Z should also be listed as one. He tends to be compared to other villains in this series, for better or worse. In general, some of the villains could have individual cases made for them.

Most of the discussion I've seen around him leans heavily negative, with positive opinions being more that he's not as bad as people think he is, than actual fans. In my opinion, that excludes him from qualifying for BBC as that indicates a certain level of unamity around him.

Back to the Sena topic, I'm wondering if she can qualify as They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character or if that would come off as complainy.

Sena is definitely a case of TWAPGC. From what I’ve gathered, nobody really dislikes her, and most of the complaints surrounding her are along the lines of “she’s underutilized”.

So, do I have permission to post the above three BBC entries for now?

In my opinion, Z may qualify as The Scrappy, since even his defenders regard him as a less-than-stellar character and their praise is more about his thematic value than himself as a character.

Only thing I'll add is that people that like Shania tend to dislike Ghondor and vice versa.

Yeah, that's fair. Any other opinions?

The drafts you showed seem to cover various arguments pretty well. I can't really think of anything to add to them at present.

I see someone added Z to BBC anyway, and unsurprisingly it's what I was afraid of - one side strongly disliking him, and one side not liking him either but considering fine or So Okay, It's Average. I don't think that's a good qualification or BBC as the latter suggests apathy rather than support.

Agreed, most of the negativity towards the Consuls is that they're Flat Characters despite their monstrosity, whereas the dislike for Shania's mom is more about her as a character.

Reading over the trope's definition, certainly it seems like the reaction hasn't been extreme enough to qualify. I don't think at any point the ending dominated discussion of the game over other aspects of it for instance. But then again, I wonder just how accurate we can be with any such assessment. Social media, polls, online comments, all give indications but can also be the result of vocal minorities.

Some fans of the second game have been upset by the revelation that Rex had kids with Pyrrha, Mythra, and Nia — who wasn't even a choice in the second game — making said choice meaningless.

For sure, but I wouldn't really consider the reaction to that to constitute an Audience-Alienating Ending either, and also it's dealt with on other entries for this page.

I would say the ending had some mixed receptions, but there isn't enough across the board negativity that the ending is bad.

The last arc in a broad sense is pretty commonly derided, though.

Being the one who initially added it before realizing that not enough time had passed, I would like to mention that, from what I've looked into across multiple message boards and forums on other websites, the general reaction seems to be very polarized. Most who like the ending seem to appear rather tepid about it, whereas those who don't tend to be extremely vocal, but with a fair amount of defenders trying to sway them towards a more positive stance. Above all else, though, there doesn't appear to be a middle ground in regards to reactions to the ending, and while the enjoyers and haters of the ending are about evenly split, it generally feels like the ones who don't like the ending have more to say about it.

I wouldn't really even call it an even split. The reactions I've personally seen across various social media websites very much leans towards the people who disliked the ending being a very Vocal Minority. And it's certainly not enough to cause people to swear off the franchise or consider the game retroactively ruined because of it like, say, the ending of Bayonetta 3.

Well, aside from those who straight-up misinterpreted certain scenes like thinking Mio's diary entry about forgetting her Keves friends came from her restored Alrestian self, which I get some of the confusion because of its placement but some of those interpretations are straight-up impossible.

Any second opinions on whether I have permission to trim/modify some of the entries, or what I can do to make them read more like proper Audience Reactions?

Third call, but if nobody objects, I plan on deleting them as the entries as written do not deal with audience reactions in a meaningful way.

For what it's worth I'm fine with it, I personally think real world political leanings should usually be left out of fantasy games when feasible.

Well it doesn't matter what you think but what the audience does, and if there was a valid case then it should stay, but not as written.

Apologies, I thought I was agreeing with you about deleting them, and you were requesting input.

I'm deleting them for now but if someone can rewrite them in a way that better fits guidelines, then it's allowed to stay, especially since this is a game that wears a lot of political metaphors on its sleeve.

I'm a bit late to the party here, but I feel like the basics of the "this plot is political" is already covered under the (far shorter) Applicability entry. I don't think that one needs expansion, but maybe some of it can be moved there if people are still sore?

What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? is for when audiences read blatantly political meanings into a plot that's more ambiguous or which clearly didn't intend it. I don't know about other people but I think Xenoblade 3 is pretty upfront about its political nature without being all that ambiguous.

The reason it's the way it was is because the Anvilicious entry used to have open mention of the game criticizing capitalism, but was constantly getting deleted or edited, often to remove those mentions of capitalism, so the political talk got migrated to WDYMINP as a kind of compromise, although those entries also attracted defensive capitalist types who would modify it to say the game was akshually criticizing communism.

Eventually the Anvilicious and Applicability entries got turned into what they are now as a kind of compromise, and Anvilicious was recently edited to explicitly mention predatory capitalism as a deliberate target of criticism and nobody has objected or vandalized it yet, plus there were also major issues with What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? turning into a Wallof Text that just talked about the game and not audience reactions, so its purpose became outdated.

No, that's what I mean. The What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? entry was wrong, because that's simply not what the trope is. But there was quite a lot of analysis there, and maybe there's a better place to put it.

I have no real horse in this race. I didn't contribute to the entry at all. I just feel like there's been a lot of analysis of the game's politics and that should be put somewhere.

I haven't used the class in any serious battles yet, but what I've heard is more that it is considered middling rather than outright bad, with strong and weak points. She only seems to have really disappointed those who were expecting the class to be super powerful like the DLC Blades of 2.

Same, I've heard it's a perfectly serviceable Evasion Tank, but not the Game-Breaker people were expecting after of 2's massive Power Creep.

They explain why it works in the story itself. Mio's connection with the past Miyabi and the intensity of their personal bond is able to reawaken those memories, just as Cammuravi feels a strong bond with and is able to regain his sense of self around Ethel throughout their lives. Up to you whether it's a satisfying answer, but it is provided nonetheless.

He's one of my favorites, but I'm not sure if he takes it far enough to count as most examples are a lot more exaggerated to the point of putting people down because of it. When I think of Awesome Ego, I think more of H.B. or Dagas levels of arrogance.

I don't think any of the heroes qualify as TIS outside of Triton. Every single one of them other than him offers some kind of utility, be it useful Chain Attack bonuses or extra healing/reviving as you describe, but almost always at least one of them. Even the ones who have crappy classes like Machine Assassin usually have an OK order. Triton is the only one who can actively screw your Chain Attack over because of his order attributes.

Indeed, personally I found Valdi very useful early in the game where my healing power was much weaker for the other characters.

Thats true. I think the issue is that Valdi's Chain Attack bonuses are very weak, which from my experience and what I have heard, make him among the worst to use. However, thinking it over, Chain Attack only issues would probably not be enough to make it a TIS.

Yeah, I think Valdi feels more like a Crutch Character since he's one of the mandatory Heroes and his healing can help you if you need it, even if you'll eventually you'll get better Healer classes and Heroes. Healer Heroes will always have some use and are arguably some of the best Heroes to run because that's another body on the field that can, at the very least, revive fallen allies.

Alright, then I'll remove Valdi later since it's agreed that he's a decent pick early on with his out-of-Chain utility.

Not sure about the the Origin metal one. A lot of people think it happens too fast and in an uninteresting way, with many suggesting they should've just made all of the party member Hero Quests mandatory and tacked the Origin Metal shards as rewards for them, which would technically make the game longer. I think it fits better under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot.

The Li Garte quests are not padding, because the tedium is explicitly the point. It's less about extending game run time and more about the game making an Anvilicious point.

Fair enough about the prison quests, since it was intended then it's kind of the point. I'll go and add the point about the Origin Metal then.

I think Scrappy Mechanic can stay at is. It's not like this is Xenoblade Wii or Xenoblade 2.

Mwamba gets memed on, and I feel like that alone is enough to make him an Ensemble Dark Horse. It probably is most likely due to his short screentime and his silly name, but that he's a Nice Guy mentor to the Keves trio helps a lot.

Consul K is also pretty funny, and since most Moebius are all kind of the same brand of Kick the Dog, at least this guy brings some over the top villainy with it. Actually I think Consul V?, the one from Taion's Ascension Quest, also applies for that because he's a Dastardly Whiplash type, but he's part of a side quest. Or would that make him even more eligible?

Agreed on M, the Heroes, Bolearis, the Keves Queen, and Dorin and Bambam. Haven't really seen much of the other aforementioned NP Cs to comment.

I don't see anyone talking about Consul V at all.

Right, this does have to do more with general fan reactions. I thought Consul V was funny, but I'd probably be one of the only ones then.

Mwamba should definitely stay as the game made it very obvious he wasn't meant to be more than a Mauve Shirt but people embraced him anyway.

While I enjoyed V for his hamminess, I haven't seen any fandom discussion of him except to note that he has a funny voice.

Go ahead and toss the Queen entry. As for the Heroes, I think it's fair to bar anyone who shows up in the main story (Ethel, Valdi, Riku/Manana, Isurd, Juniper, Monica, Ghondor, Miyabi, Cammuravi, the two post-game Heroes, maybe Zeon since he appears in Colony 9 as a story NPC), but optional heroes are fair game.

Based on feedback, I removed some of them. One's not listed on here are either removed or remain and don't need discussion further. Here are the remaining ones:

• Consul M. Despite her Small Role, Big Impact status, everything about her has won fans over, from being an Evil Counterpart to Mio, to her appealing visual design and awesome Demonic Possession powers. But especially her being Good All Along and devising a Batman Gambit with Mio where they perform a "Freaky Friday" Flip, providing for one of the best emotional payoffs in the game after a horribly bleak and depressing chapter and learning about her own horrible treatment at the hands of N. Same point from before: way too important to be here
• Consul K, the game's comical Starter Villain (much like Xord and XC2 Bana), garnered a lot of attention and fans for his Laughably Evil nature, delightfully hammy delivery, and Sophisticated as Hell vocabulary despite surviving for less than a chapter.Same as before. K is very important for the early game and is given a lot of focus. They aren't a one-off character.
  K: It's the big bad boss! Boo!
• Oleshandra is a very minor NPC who doesn't even have any voiced lines but is nevertheless very popular for her cute Hospital Hottie design and and being a Nice Girl in Colony 4 sidequests. Should be fine to keep.
• Even though he's merely a Companion Cube, Valdi's Mini-Levnis, dubbed by him as Mechafriend, grew a near-immediate cult following due to being a Big Damn Hero who saved Valdi at the last second from Consul Q.Again, not sure on this. Less of a character but is still given importance through Valdi in the main story.
• Nico is an extremely minor NPC from Colony Mu who nevertheless manages to stand out for her unusual speech patterns which fans find positively adorable.Not sure if this is enough to qualify since it is very specific and has a semi ZCE like justification.

Nah, I've definitely seen some love for Nico on places like Twitter because of the funny way she talks. Some examples here, here, and here.

The only ones worth discussing is Consul K and Mechafriend then.

I'd keep Consul K if only because his XC 1 and 2 counterparts (Xord and Bana, both also over the top, hammy starter villains that leave an impression) are also listed on their respective pages. If he fulfills the same role then he should probably stay. Don't think I've seen anyone talk about Mechafriend though.

I don't think either Xord or Bana should fit either, but focusing on K, I think he's too important to qualify.

Agreed, that sucker is massive.

I agree with removing Medic Gunner, but I don't really think that the other two classes should go in Tier-Induced Scrappy in lieu of it. They do just feel more overshadowed by not being Signifer/Lifesage/Troubadour rather than straight up bad to me as I'm personally going through a hard mode run and heavily relaying on their buffs (especially Strategos) in mid game.

I think it's agreed that Thaumaturge is the worst healer in the game.

As for Strategos, I can see where you came from but why is Tactician in the TIS while Strategos isn't?

I remember reading that Strategos actually manages to do Thaumaturge's mixed healer/attacker gimmick better than Thaumaturge while also being a respectable healer.

Also agree on Medic Gunner being removed from TIS. The actual issue with Medic Gunner is more along the lines of Magikarp Power since it needs a lot of abilities and master arts to really get going.

I would remove Strategos from TIS. General opinion seems to be that while it gets outclassed by the end, Strategos is a solid mid-game Healer class, in part because it's a straight upgrade from Tactician. It's got several more practical buffs, debuffs that are useful by debuff standards if you can get them to land, and reasonably potent heals that allow it to do what Medic Gunner has to work hard to achieve for cheap outside of endgame kits.

As for Tactician in TIS, I've heard it's got some solid Crutch Character utility in early-game Hard Mode before you have the levels to get multiple Master Arts, but outside of that it's too Master of None to go anywhere.

Well, since we have two advocates for Strategos, I'll remove its entry later today.

Haven't really seen polarization over Joran, Kite kinda, but Shania and Ghondor are definitely the most polarizing characters in 3 thus far.

I dunno about Kite and Ghondor. I haven't seen any polarization with them, outside of people being annoyed at Kite memes. Shania definitely, Joran probably.

I agree on Ghondor and Shania, and have even written up a preliminary draft for Ghondor for the time being^note * Base-Breaking Character: Ghondor. Fans either find her rude and in-your-face Sir Swears-a-Lot attitude extremely hilarious in a Crosses the Line Twice way, and consider her developments in Sena's Side Story to be an interesting deconstruction of her character flaws, or find her Jerkass behavior unbearable and too unsympathetic, on top of being a Spotlight-Stealing Squad for Sena. Likewise her voice acting is contentious between those who find it entertainingly hammy and over-the-top and those who find it annoying or poorly-acted compared to the rest of the dub..

Joran seems to earn mixed opinions, but not yet to the point I'd call him polarizing, and some of it is mixed with childish complaints rather than serious criticisms. That one will definitely have to wait. As for Kite, I wasn't even aware there was anyone who seriously disliked him.

I've seen plenty of people get annoyed by Kite being a constant Commander Contrarian to Zeon on top of him and his team being very hostile to Ouroboros even after they save the colony from the Consul. His more positive traits and Character Development only really get shown in Zeon's ascension quest, which to some people is too late for them to care. His infatuation for Juniper is hilarious, but some people still find him annoying and unlikable despite that.

Joran's case is more so regarding his arc. People have regarded it as either rushed or not well written since there aren't very many scenes between the party and Joran as J before his and D's final boss fight and thus there isn't much impact for the player when Joran sacrifices himself, especially since immediately afterwards the more beloved Nia finally makes a reappearance.

Totally agree with Shania and Ghondor.

Not sure about Joran (I do know a few people personally who can't stand him) but I don't think Kite counts. Most of the time I hear people discuss him it's to joke about him instantly falling head over heels for Juniper.

Isn't Ensemble Dark Horse dependent on fan reaction rather than how the game treats them?

Ensemble Dark Horse has to be a side character because main characters are expected to be popular.

I have a feeling Juniper wouldn't quite count. Not only are they a Hero (so not really a side character) but they're one of the few required ones.

I agree the deletion was a little suspicious too. I already re-added it in a trimmed-down and hopefully more neutral/objective-reading fashion before seeing this message, so sincere apologies if I jumped the gun and that was the incorrect thing to do.

Although I added the original, admittedly very rough version of the entry a while ago, hopefully the fact that it's been through various hands (that seem to agree with it) and the fact that I tried to rewrite it to address potential issues with the entry is enough to keep it from falling into Edit War territory, but if it is, then I won't do it again.

Nah, your conduct seems fine to me. If Avalon wishes to raise concerns then they can do so here.

Sorry bout that! I did that because I wanted to delete it and reword it entirely since it was really long and thought it should be rephrased/structured to be more concise. I just ended up forgetting about it after since I got caught up on something else. Feel free to add it back.

Alright cool, glad we're on the same page. I actually agree, since it was redundant with some of the lower tropes, and tried to make it more concise.

Ah sweet, no harm done then. Just be careful to provide reasons in the future, Avalan, lol.

I would say so, yeah. Xenoblade has made a point to avoid unrevisatable areas since Xenoblade 1, and as as you said, there's a lot of content in the City that they wouldn't just remove (the Mechonis areas are all just dungeons, by comparison)

As the one who added those entries, and as someone who doesn't really ship any of the cast, I did so because I saw a bunch of people on social media (Twitter, Reddit, the chats of popular Twitch channels) talk about these scenes like that, and in the case of the latter, spamming rainbow emotes. Point is, even if you didn't see it that way, enough people did elsewhere that it's not a fringe opinion. Besides if it was really as overtly gay as you imply it needed to be to count, then it'd be in Homoerotic Subtext, not Ho Yay.

If you think I could've written these entries in a clearer fashion, that'd be more valid, although I felt I made it pretty obvious I was describing audience reactions and not treating my opinion as fact (especially because neither of these are my own opinion; I spent most of the early game assuming Taion was ace).

True enough, though I suppose that says more about social media than anything else. Apologies if I was too harsh.

As the person who removed them, I agree it's silly to limit to AST and especially Win Back the Crowd to post-release, especially since a lot of creators deliberately use early trailers to win people over, but apparently it's no longer allowed for pre-release works.

I've been logging each one that gets posted and writing a few in my drafts page, so I can put them all up now, and we can come back here if someone else takes them down.

Not sure what you mean about the Machina there, though.

Having seen the Machina example you posted, I don't think that really constitutes an example. While some people certainly wished you could play as a Machina character, it wasn't a particularly common criticism people held against the game as a serious flaw so much as wishful thinking. Author's Saving Throw is specifically about making something widely perceived as a bad thing, good by fixing it, not about ways people believed a neutral-to-good thing could've been made even better.

Likewise the Hero system example as written focuses too much on the wishful thinking aspect as opposed to things which the creators heeded as something to fix for the next game. I would rewrite that example to focus more on how the Hero System is a revamped version of the Blade system from 2 but modified to remove the gacha Scrappy Mechanic limitations that made a lot of audiences hate it.