YMMV Hyrule Warriors Discussion

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AkiraxAtsukifan
Topic
11:46:37 AM Aug 11th 2014
For Memetic Mutation would commenting on Ganondorf's hair be a meme for this series or would it apply to other series in general because it seems like any "bara" like character with long hair would have that hair product meme joke showing up?
SeptimusHeap
11:54:24 AM Aug 11th 2014
Well, on this page, it should only refer to memes for the series.
AkiraxAtsukifan
07:44:00 PM Aug 11th 2014
Then I won't add it since I see it used a lot in other fandoms like Thor.
helterskelter
Topic
11:20:49 PM Aug 7th 2014
General overview of changes I made, as someone with an ear close to fandom;

  • Broken Base represents a strong divide in fandom, and I have yet to see groups of people actively raging over "Baton", besides maybe some mild annoyance. As pointed out, this has been totally mitigated.
  • I haven't seen a single speck of Die for Our Ship yet. This is an example of a seemingly speculative trope. Since Cia was immediately announced as a villainous character, that mitigated basically any issues people had with her.
  • Ensemble Darkhorse: As major playable characters, Impa and Ganondorf can't be this.
  • Evil Is Sexy. The description implies a certain amount of intent, being YMMV because people's definition of 'sexy' is different. But can anyone argue that Ganondorf was designed with 'sex appeal' on the mind? Especially given the blatant Cia?
  • Older Than They Think: The trope description makes it clear this is about people thinking that tropes, plots, etc are original to their series. Like Homer Simpson's "D'oh!" actually originating from Laurel and Hardy. The example given makes a lot of assumptions regarding what is actually supposed to be thought of as 'first', and even so, Veran is hardly the same level as Cia.
  • Ship-to-Ship Combat: This entry seems to be entirely speculating on what might happen, rather than what has.
  • Visual Effects: Tried to make it a little more specific and compelling, instead of "I like how this looks, it looks good".
  • Win Back the Crowd: I already mentioned it in the description, but this trope is about a work falling out of grace, and then the creators making an effort to save it. The examples are all about 'some people didn't care/like it, but then they found out more about it'.
Customer
03:55:08 PM Aug 8th 2014
edited by 71.12.50.88
Based on your overview, I guess that you may have read the topic I'm about to link, but in any case...

To quote Magdrugada, from a topic about how to edit a YMMV page:

"The only reason that you can legitimately change or remove a YMMV entry is if you can demonstrate that it is factually inaccurate or is misusing the trope.[...]

YMMV means 'These are subjective. Different people will see them differently'. Someone adding one is saying 'This is what I think.' Deleting it is effectively saying 'No, you don't really think that.'"

I'm quoting that mostly to let anyone one else know where I'm going with the rest of this post.


Well, I've just a few comments; I don't really disagree with their removal, I do question some of the reasoning:
  • Broken Base (Baton): Most of the rage came from social media sites like Youtube. People were (and still are, from what I've seen) upset, but I assume those people haven't yet realized the reasoning behind the weapon names in the trailers. Once the game actually releases, it should die down.
  • Win Back the Crowd: I agree with the reason, although the first bullet (about many people reacting negatively to the game upon first reveal, then showing actual interest when Famitsu revealed what it did) seems accurate to the trope. The rest of it could fit under And the Fandom Rejoiced probably.
  • Evil Is Sexy: While true, it's YMMV for a reason as well; what people find "sexy" varies wildly (particularly for male characters, especially if they aren't pretty boys, which are usually the only type of evil guys that are regularly put into this trope). I believe that if intent could be easily read by the audience, then the trope wouldn't be a YMMV trope (and I wouldn't be surprised if this started out as a main trope, but got labeled with YMMV because editors couldn't agree on how it was supposed to be used and who was a proper example).
    • And to be honest, Ganondorf's HW appearance is similar to a specific body type that's generally considered sexy by some (and is incidentally used by villains more often than not, especially in Japanese media). Don't be surprised if he's added back, since he doesn't really not fit the trope outside of not being conventionally "sexy".*
    • All of that said though, it may be more accurate for HW!Ganondorf to be considered a Draco in Leather Pants. The trailers make it pretty clear that he's evil, we just don't know how evil.
  • Older Than They Think: Well, I've seen many people talk about Cia as if she were the first "sexy" villainess in the series. Veran should probably be mentioned in Base Breaker in the bit about other Stripperific characters in the series, but she was definitely the first sexy villainess on design alone.* That said though, your reason for deletion seems to fit with the trope's actual definition (and makes me wonder if we need to open a TRS for it, since I've mostly seen Older Than They Think used this way more often than not).

The others are fine from what I can see. However, the "speculative" ones are mostly based on trends with the fandom, so they'll probably be added once the game hits the ground.

Sorry if I sound argumentative or anything; I'm mostly just voicing my opinion since you actually had the courtesy to put your edit reasons on the discussion page.
helterskelter
10:59:02 PM Aug 8th 2014
Hm, I do feel like the ones I took down were factually wrong or simply misuse, save, as your point out, the Baton issue, and maybe Evil Is Sexy. That can go up just fine, but I assumed the difference between tropes like this and simple fetish fuel tropes is that there is an intention by the creators to make him sexy. The description seems to imply that. If someone wants to debate, I have no problem with it coming back up, but I think they're confusing "I like this" as a character design element. I agree one can debate on whether something is intended, but I don't see how one can really look at Ganondorf and assume he was designed to be attractive to audiences. Whether or not he ended up being so notwithstanding.

As far Older Than They Think, I agree that it is in general used in a way this page suggested, but I'm still going to call it misuse until TRS runs through it and makes a decision.

I can certainly see things like Ship-to-Ship Combat going straight back up as soon as we actually learn relevant story details and it actually becomes an issue, but for right now it's just guessing.
mgbenz
12:03:18 PM Aug 12th 2014
If we're considering Evil is Sexy as characters designed specifically to be sexy and not just who people find sexy then the trope itself is in a major need of overhaul since most of the entries in the page don't qualify.
AkiraxAtsukifan
Topic
08:55:58 PM Aug 4th 2014
Want to change the Broken Case portion without getting in trouble again. We need to change the problem with the gender distribution because that comment literally doesn't match the same thing as Smash Brothers and just seems to be a jab at the fanbase. If its not changed in 24, I'm going to change the comment back to its original statement of most fans saying "Who cares about gender?" because I don't see anybody really complaining about the gender ratio except on Tumblr who makes stuff up just to get hits.
SeptimusHeap
01:14:53 AM Aug 5th 2014
Huh. I think you want Broken Base. The example writeup reads like "some fans don't like it", which is not what Broken Base is around. The entry needs rewriting to account for how it's a broken base, or outright removal.
AkiraxAtsukifan
01:06:10 AM Aug 6th 2014
That's the thing. It's not really a broken base. They already stated that the gender ratio will be even so there is no reason for this topic about more female characters to be under Broken Base (yes I spelled it wrong). You look at comments from Youtube and other websites and again, the only website that says that people are complaining about too many female characters is Tumblr. You don't see that in the videos when they show a new character (with the exception of people complaining about Fii who is a Base Breaker in her original game). This is why I want to remove the entire sentence altogether because it contradicts what people are saying about the game.

One Tumblr post even said men are complaining about how too many female characters in this game make the story boring? Who actually said that? I want a screen cap of who actually said that because that's why this whole thing about people complaining is made up as far as I'm concerned.
LogoP
01:20:08 AM Aug 6th 2014
Yeah, when it comes to cases like this... Tumblr shouldn't really be relied upon. They are known to exaggerate, if not outright fabricate, stuff more than often.
SeptimusHeap
01:39:49 AM Aug 6th 2014
I'll flip it around here - who does say, and on what basis, that Tumblr is wrong?

That is the whole reason why we have a special message that is about people who remove YMMV items. The pages are not here to decide which opinion is the right one.
LogoP
01:48:34 AM Aug 6th 2014
It has been discussed before, though it concerned Unfortunate Implications, that Tumblr is a place where anyone can create a blog to whine about issues that s/he finds bothersome.

If the only hint of a Broken Base exists on Tumblr -and solely on Tumblr- while further search on other social media/websites/fora disproves of its existance, then, yes, something's fishy here.

It won't be the first time an entry based on Tumblr posts will be deleted for being inaccurate, either.
SeptimusHeap
02:31:44 AM Aug 6th 2014
I am seeing some other sites with people complaining about gender ratios as well (gamefaqs,ign.com, zeldauniverse.net and animenewsnetwork for example) although I also see people who consider this a good thing. So I stand by my scepticism.
LogoP
02:37:10 AM Aug 6th 2014
Why? If the complaining is widespread to other sites as well then this is, indeed, a case of Broken Base. It proves that the Broken Base opinion isn't just limited on Tumblr.

SeptimusHeap
02:49:09 AM Aug 6th 2014
The "scepticism" comment was directed towards Akirax who said that there isn't really a Broken Base, as well as to people who dismissed Tumblr. Anyhow it seems that Broken Base is in effect here (as well as a sample of websites can tell, anyway) so I am fine with it being listed.
AkiraxAtsukifan
01:16:31 PM Aug 6th 2014
If not deleted then the problem is how it says "coincidence?" The comment again is directed toward men complaining about the gender ratio and then complaining about it in Super Smash Brothers. It seems like a social justice jab at men who say gender shouldn't matter and then turn around and whine about playable female characters. I see many people who say who cares and I stand by that the statement of "Who cares about gender?" be the main point because as it stands, this statement is specifically attacking one gender and Tumblr has been posting many comments insulting the male gender about said gender ratio and when asked to give a link of who said that, they just ignore you or put you under the same boat.

What I have seen is the people who accuse the men of being hypocrites about gender ratio are expecting men not to complain when there are more female characters and turn around when only male characters are playable such as that controversy with Ubisoft and Assassin's Creed how they're quick to get on them for Ubisoft's laziness and defending Ubisoft's laziness automatically makes you sexist who doesn't want any progression in the industry. Because of this double standard, this is how I would word it.

"There has been a debate concerning the gender ratio despite the player character count is stated to be even. The majority of gamers think "Why would it matter what gender you play?" while the minority are those who complain about the gender ratio and those who praise the huge female playable characters". The latter two would fall into those who don't do their research again given what was stated.

SeptimusHeap
01:34:59 PM Aug 6th 2014
Pardon.

I am not sure what you are arguing for. I would note that the reasons for why certain sections of the fanbase are acting in a certain way are not really pertinent.
helterskelter
11:11:10 PM Aug 7th 2014
I'm certainly seeing a Broken Base over this. I agree that this trope is often used as 'some fans don't agree with what I like, let me shame them on TV Tropes', but I don't think this is one of them. Whatever their reason, some people are really not happy that there are so many women as playable characters.
AkiraxAtsukifan
12:21:45 AM Aug 8th 2014
So a vocal minority is enough to put it in Broken Base? Why not put it in the vocal minority and be done with it.

I have made it clear that I want the line either deleted or reworded. The way it is written now is specifically attacking male gamers in the fanbase. Why do we need this statement?

With each character reveal, a portion of the fanbase gets increasingly bent out of shape over the gender distribution of characters in a way not too dissimilar from a case simultaneously happening with a fellow Nintendo Crossover-Fighter that same year, Super Smash Bros.; coincidence?

Explain to me why with each character reveal how people are whining and then compairing it to Smash Brothers followed by "coincidence"?

The coincidence part is condescending. I have stated this in the previous post. Change what this says or remove it all together because of the way it is now, its just a passive-aggressive statement to bring another fandom which you can't even compare it.

Compare the playable female cast in Smash to the majority of characters revealed in Hyrule Warriors so far being female. What coincidence if the male cast in Smash was bigger to begin with? Its grasping straws.
Larkmarn
05:58:48 AM Aug 8th 2014
Any way you cut it, that's a horribly worded entry.

And yeah, "there's a Tumblr about it decrying the sexism" doesn't mean there's a Broken Base, it just means Tumblr is being Tumblr (note: Not saying that all of Tumblr is bad. I'm saying there's a Tumblr complaining about sexism in everything. Plenty of fine Tumblr blogs, but there are so many that you'll get the bad eggs). But it's sounding like it's spread to other sites so I'm not against it's inclusion.

But seriously, it's horribly worded. Bringing up Smash Bros is irrelevant, it's awkwardly worded ("in a way not too dissimilar"? Really? I've had professors who would literally hit me for using that sentence), and it manages to not explain itself (What is their issue with the gender distribution?).
AkiraxAtsukifan
04:18:08 PM Aug 10th 2014
I'll be fair and not remove the thing entirely if it is brought up even though I feel like its a vocal minority that is complaining and Tumblr in particular is blowing it out of proportion.

You could compare Smash to Hyrule Warriors in this way.

1. Smash Brothers has at least 9 girls but that is still small compared to the majority male cast (and this is including gender swaps). The new female newcomers are Rosalina, Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena and Lucina. The backlash against Rosalina came from her being a Mario character rather than a female character (the decry for Waluigi came to mind). Wii Fit Trainer came out as a left fielder therefore if anyone complained about her, it was because of a wasted spot rather than her gender. Lucina is the clone issue...and we'll leave it at that since that's a broken base right there about clones (but Tumblr has made it about sexism despite Sakurai admitting that Lucina is a Roy 2.0). Palutena was well received in contrast because she's the Hot Goddess and she was one of the most requested characters.

So the backlash against more female characters makes no sense. You can change the gender of Robin and Villager but that doesn't change anything. Its a nice option with no backlash.

So when compared to Hyrule Warriors where most of the cast revealed so far (or at least on the hero side) are female, Smash doesn't get that backlash for "half the cast is women" or "too many women" because those people are flat out dumb because in Smash, people whine about their favorite character not getting in regardless of gender. I mean look at Bigley's fanbase. Do you think they're going to care if another female character get in if it's not Ridley?

This is why I'm making the edit. Because the situation is not similar at all. (And for me, if I complained about the characters, it would be because Groose hasn't been announced yet, not because the majority of the cast is female. I really hate this gender issue talk because apparently demanding a male character is sexist when its more of a favorite character issue).
SeptimusHeap
12:53:59 AM Aug 11th 2014
edited by 81.62.211.42
Turning their opinion (or even any YMMV tab entry) into a strawman that disagrees with itself is not nice. Please don't do that.

Also, doing a quick count most people seem to agree with including the entry, albeit with rewrites.
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