Discussion YMMV / AvengersAgeOfUltron

My reasoning for why these don't count are these.

1. Ultron as I have mentioned, is insane. The movie makes this clear throughout its runtime. And people who are insane do not make rash decision. What is it to him that Black Widow might contact them, when he plans to do so himself? And even though he mocks the idea of gloating, he has been doing that since the battle in Africa. He gloated to Tony that he was wasting his time with him when he has already gotten away with the vibranium and that the Hulk was on the rampage. And destroying him wouldn't matter because he will just transfer over to his other body. He's still a cocky villain who will gloat when he believes he has the upper hand. And as far as he's concerned, he's already won against them because he and Scarlet Witch have already crippled all of them except Tony and sent Hulk on a rampage.

2. Ultron doesn't believe challenging the Avengers is a bad idea. He believes he can destroy them, his army has become massive and he has a new vibranium body. And even then, he wasn't counting on them finishing Vision and Vision ruining his plans. And this is also important, while his ultimate goal is destroying the human race to force them to evolve, his personal goal is to destroy the Avengers. No matter what, it was important that he destroy them himself. It is his way of proving he is superior to them, which is what he believes and it is only after they had manage to prove that they were too much for him that he admits it might have been a bad idea (not that it stops him from attacking them with the Quinjet later). And if they hadn't gotten their act together after the Africa incident, then he may very well have succeeded.

3. I will concede that Wanda and Pietro would have told them eventually, but look at the timeline the movie presents. Clint has already started work on finding Natasha and she has already sent out the signal. Steve, Wanda and Pietro are still on their way to the Avengers Tower and their priority is stopping Tony from finishing Vision. And just because his base is in Sokovia doesn't mean he's taken Natasha there and Wanda and Pietro wouldn't know if Ultron had kidnapped her. Also, as was established, no one was on comm and he couldn't contact them and it's extremely unlikely once Tony decided to put JARVIS inside the Vision that he would have taken any of Steve's calls.

4. We don't know whether or not that is the case. After all, Bruce came in with Thor and they could have run into some guards. And since Ultron was planning to ambush them anyway, he probably was intending to use her as bait. Much of the evacuation scene is glossed over, but considering that Ultron would have noticed the people of Sokovia evacuating (since he has eyes everywhere) he probably left her alone because he already had them right where he wanted. In the city that is going to be used in his Colony Drop plan.

5. Even prior to that, Black Widow sitting around waiting isn't stupid because of a couple of reasons that also tie into 3. She's still in hostile territory with a whole army of Ultron drones and an extremely homicidal and unhinged Ultron himself, even if she had escaped that doesn't mean she wouldn't have encountered any of them on her way out. And as we also saw, the Hydra base Ultron was using is pretty big. I'm sure that Ultron would have expected her to escape and left security around until it wasn't necessary. Also, Ultron is using the internet to keep an eye on the Avengers and thus the reasoning for why Tony asked Clint if he could find them oldschool spy style.

6. If she did escape, she still would have been in the middle of territory that were not big fans of the Avengers. The only reason the Avengers were able to get the citizens of Sokovia to evacuate was with the help of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. And as I've mentioned, Ultron's drones were still in the city and ready to attack at any point. The smart move, since Ultron shows no signs of wanting to harm her at this moment, is to stay put and wait for her teammates to show up, since she knows they will.

1. "Ultron as I have mentioned, is insane." and "Ultron doesn't believe challenging the Avengers is a bad idea.": So? Just because he's insane doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. The What An Idiot trope still displays dumb actions regardless of insanity. Loki too tried to prove himself superior and he learned that was a bad idea the hard way.

2. "No one was on comm and he couldn't contact them". Clint was on comm. He would have heard Ultron. Tony also could have heard him through the Internet; he said he even expected Ultron to kill Widow to rub it in their faces.

3. If Bruce had run into guards, either the film would have shown that or he would still be tailed by them. Ultron logically wouldn't let Banner keep sneaking into his base if he's seen Banner or Thor fight off a few of him, or else more drones would be coming. If he were using Widow as bait he would have sprung the trap the moment Banner opened her cell. So the most likely cause for why they're alone with no guards is that Ultron was't paying attention.

4. "he probably left her alone because he already had them right where he wanted. In the city that is going to be used in his Colony Drop plan" Which is textbook "I'm going to step out while the hero deals with my death trap". Also something he knows better than to do.

4. Widow was initially surrounded, but once Ultron and his drones left she could have then escaped. One can't say "I'm sure he would have expected it and left security" if we didn't see any and none of it responded to Banner. Widow has escaped from being surrounded by goons while tied to a chair, or have a bomb strapped to her. Ultron didn't even take her utility belt, since she still had those anti-bot shock sticks. "If she did escape, she still would have been in the middle of territory that were not big fans of the Avengers." It shouldn't be hard for Widow to sneak around or fight off civilians who have no combat training or weapons.

1. He still doesn't believe it's a bad idea. And no, just because we the audience know it is a bad idea doesn't change that. He still believes he is superior and will win. He is absolutely confident in that, so you can say he has Suicidal Overconfidence, but that doesn't mean he's an idiot. We have seen that Ultron is a threat and the only reason he didn't kill Cap was because he had been saved by Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.

2. Why would Ultron be on the internet UNLESS he had killed Natasha? And what Tony said is that he knows that Ultron hasn't killed her, because if he had he would be rubbing it in their faces. That's why he asks Clint if he can find her through old school spy work. He's expecting a trap of some sort, which considering what Ultron had just managed to do, it's not that hard to see why he would think so. He also doesn't want Ultron to know what they are planning, so using the internet would be a bad idea, because then it means that Ultron will kill her just to screw with them some more.

3. Again, Ultron does not care if she contacts them and that still doesn't mean he won't kill her if she does try to escape. But since he wants to finish them off all at once, that means he's willing to let her escape and get away once the others come for her. And as for Banner, since he didn't Hulk Out and Thor was with him, any guards they did run into we can assume Thor took care of. And that brings me to my next point.

4. And we can't say it's not. After all, 44 minutes of the movie were cut out and many of those scenes might have featured that. Just because we don't see it also doesn't mean it's not happening. It's call offscreen action, and despite it not being shown, it still happens. After all, while we see Tony installing FRIDAY into the armor, we do not see the construction of the Mrk 45 armor, meaning it can be either already made like the Mrk VII or it is in the process of being built. The same can be said of Banner's trip through the Sokovia fortress.

5. And it's not the civilians she'd have to worry about, it's the Ultron drones, who would be looking for her. And yes, it might be easy for Widow to avoid them, there's still the fact that she'd have no way to get out of Sokovia unless she wanted to risk exposing herself to danger. And that's not getting into the fact that she has no way to contact the others without the risk of Ultron listening in.

1. "He still doesn't believe it's a bad idea." Again, that's irrelevant to the trope. We have Ronan gloating before bringing down the hammer in the MCU What An Idiot page, and he saw no trouble with taking his time. Think about it this way: One sets themselves on fire. That's dumb. They don't care that they set themselves on fire. That doesn't make it not dumb. That makes it dumber.

2. "Why would Ultron be on the internet" Because he always is. That's why Vision had to burn him out. Even if Tony expects a trap, he's still going to want to do something about it if Ultron calls them. Ultron could even disguise his message to sound like Nat. He's got resources to do so.

3. "Ultron does not care if she contacts them / he's willing to let her escape and get away". How do you know this? He says nothing about the matter. If he never commented on it, it's more plausible that he didn't know. There needs to be evidence that he didn't care.

4. "Just because we don't see it also doesn't mean it's not happening." But we have need to have evidence that it happened. We see the armor, we know it was built. If Bruce arrived at Nat's cell looking disheveled and wounded, we'd know he fought guards on the way. But instead he arrives looking just fine and not tired, suggesting there were no guards.

5. "she'd have no way to get out of Sokovia unless she wanted to risk exposing herself to danger" Exposing herself to danger is her job. It's not as if sitting the cell would be safer, it risks Ultron getting bored and finally killing her while she has no defense. She's gotten out of more desperate situations before. Considering Bruce has minimal combat skill when unhulked, she wouldn't have a challenge getting through what he supposedly did.

Agreeing with Tucker here.

Seconded.

Alright, answer me this about Natasha deciding to escape. Why? Why risk getting yourself killed by Ultron drones when he ISN'T KILLING YOU? Why piss an already angry killer robot off when he's perfectly willing to not kill you. Not only that, but while it is her job to get into danger, it is not a smart idea to risk herself when she has no advantage. She's a spy, she's not a super soldier. She has only her stingers and her combat skills and no guns and her batons. She doesn't have the ability to control lighting, she's got no ability to hulk out, she has no backup. You can say all you want that she could get out of this, but the fact is that would be even MORE STUPID. She's already sent out a signal. She knows they are coming for her. And she knows that Ultron is insane, more powerful than her and completely willing to kill her the moment she upsets him even further. He's not killing her, that's to her advantage, escaping and risking further aggravation on the murderbot isn't.

Fine, if you want the example of Ultron being idiot, you have enough evidence for that. But you are also missing what I'm trying to say about Black Widow. You're acting as if she's Wonder Woman, which she isn't, she's a normal person who happens to have a very impressive martial and ballistic skill set. With the Winter Soldier, she knew that she was probably likely to lose, but she also was smart enough to know that she couldn't just run away. She gave it a shot, but only because of the possibility of civilian. But most importantly, she LOST, because he was more skilled than her and stronger than her. But she also knew that she had backup and fought and stalled for as long as possible for Steve to help her in time. And it is the same with Ultron. You're expecting me to buy that someone who knows that not even Captain America could beat Ultron on his own would be willing to risk engaging him herself? I will remind you that Steve Rodgers is the greatest soldier on the planet, a man who is a super solider (which Natasha in this setting isn't), and all he could do was stall Ultron. Trying to escape is not a smart move. It is stupid, moronic and suicidal. And Natasha is not an idiot, she would realize that her best bet is to wait for the backup that she has sent out for.

And what part of Thor fought them do you not get? I said he didn't fight them, I had said he had Thor who helped him. You are ignoring my point that he was not alone when he got there. Sure, they separated, but Bruce still was not alone and thus didn't need to do any fighting. We WOULD know that he had fought, but as you said, he know he didn't.

I will concede the point about Ultron, but I will always defend that Black Widow's actions in this are not this trope.

With Nat I'll admit it's a bit harder because there isn't much onscreen detail about the security to her cell. If there was a lot of security and Ultron knew about her distress call, then it would be a bad idea for her to escape. But if there wasn't much security besides the bars and Ultron did forget about her (which is what I got from the film, based on the evidence), then she should've made an effort to escape. She cannot predict what Ultron will do; there's no guarantee that staying quiet in her cell will mean he won't decide that now's the time to kill her. The sooner she's away from him, the safer she is. If, in The Winter Soldier, she risked her life just to get two seconds to distract a guy arming a bomb on her chest, then half an hour of Ultron not paying attention to her would be a worthwhile opportunity.

It's also probable that if Ultron intended to fight the Avengers, he would have freed herself himself, not left her forgotten in the cell. Intending the Avengers to free her would mean one of them would come to his lab, and that's not very far away from the reactor he doesn't want them to fiddle with.

That doesn't make her an idiot. Ultron might be an idiot, but she's not. The point still stands that escaping might provoke Ultron, who we have established, can't be fought alone by just one Avenger. We have seen Ultron maim someone just for mentioning that he said something Stark said. How do you think he's gonna react to Black Widows escape attempt?

And actually, the reactor to his machine is underneath the church, not the fortress.

Alright, then I'll go with a modified entry referring only to Ultron.

So someone added natter, which isn't good.

That said, the natter is correct. Keeping Widow alive and locking her in a cell with communication equipment isn't idiotic, it's accomplishing exactly what he wants. He wants to defeat all the Avengers in one go. "All of you versus all of me" and all. Thus what happened with BW is perfect for his plan.

... now, his plan is idiotic because he could've just been pragmatic and been done with it. Even not counting on The Vision, taking the heroes out one-by-one and not bothering to gloat would've been much smarter.

I'm suggesting this writeup:

• Ultron's desire to have a climactic showdown with all of the Avengers. At the climax, Ultron reveals that he finally got what he wanted, "all of you against all of me." He could have simply killed the captured Black Widow, but he not only let her live but did nothing to stop her from sending out a distress call, alerting the Avengers to Ultron's location. Had he not been so focused on fighting and having something to prove, the heroes would have had no hope of stopping him.

I would say that it's not idiotic, because.. Ultron got what he wanted, it just didn't turn out the way that he wanted it to. He wanted to fight all of the Avengers, and he got it.

Ultron's not just fighting the Avengers because of his ideology (remaking the world) but because he wants to prove he's better than them. He's not going to achieve that if he doesn't fight them all at once, so he's got reason to let Widow contact the others. He could have gone about it in a less convoluted manner, but he very much wanted the Avengers there so he could challenge them. It's not really idiotic when he gets what he wants. It think the entry needs to be at best rewritten to reflect that Ultron got what he wanted. For example...

• Ultron's desire to have a climactic showdown with all of the Avengers ends up directly sabotaging his goal to remake mankind, as leaving Black Widow alive and letting her call the Avengers leads to them intervening in his final plot. On the other hand, Ultron implies that this was deliberate, and that he wanted to bring the Avengers together into a climactic battle, since defeating them is as much about proving himself better than the Avengers as it is about remaking mankind.

My issue is that it being deliberate, that him wanting that and having his goal is the idiocy. If, say, someone has a goal to fight a lion, then jumping into a lion's cage is great for his goal, but his goal is stupid. In this case, the lion is the Avengers and keeping BW alive is the jump.

What the current entry is describing at the moment makes more sense being under Dude, Not Funny! (which is actually where it used to be before getting nuked for some reason), Fridge Horror (which is what the entry itself concedes to being; hence I've moved it to that page for now), or a particularly grim Genius Bonus. It should be rewritten as to explain how the implications are unfortunate. The trope is about subtextual and unintentional bigotry, not explicit text with an intentional meaning that not everyone in the audience necessarily understands. Square Peg Round Trope.

Likewise the article's mention of Loki calling Black Widow a mewling quim is not this trope either, because he wasn't unfortunately implying she was a cunt, he was straight-up calling her one. Again, something like that would belong under Fridge Horror / Genius Bonus, not Unfortunate Implications. On a side note, the point of that line is to intentionally showcase him as a Politically Incorrect Villain, not to use him as a mouthpiece for the writer's actual views on women; blame Misaimed Fandom or Viewers Are Morons, not the writer, for the lack of anger directed at Loki. As said, Square Peg Round Trope.

There is no rule stating that this is mutually exclusive to Unfortunte Implications. Second, casual rape jokes are a form of "unintentional bigotry".

The point about Loki is completely irrelevant to this discussion incidentally.

Then the entry should be rewritten to reflect that, since the old version didn't make the cut and was preoccupied with the Fridge Horror aspects of the line, which the site makes clear are distinct from Unfortunate Implications.

Well, casual rape jokes being bigotry really shouldn't need explanation, but if you insist...

• There's also the line during the hammer lift scene where Tony says when he takes over Asgard he'll "re-instate prima nocta." That doesn't sound bad at first...until you find out that this is a casual rape joke. Prima nocta was a (possibly made-up) law in the Middle Ages which gave lords and barons the legal right to take young, unwedded girls and have sex with them whether they wanted to or not. Detractors state that regardless of whether or not Tony was kidding, casual rape jokes are a serious problem, and not one of the heroes call Tony out for it.

The explanation about what Prima Nocta is could be trimmed down or stripped away altogether, as that's not even the reason it's an Unfortunate Implication in the first place, but otherwise the last sentence is fine.

I'm not following. You asked to expand the entry to state why it being a rape joke is bigoted/oppressive. But you want to trim/remove the part that explains WHY it's rape?

Never mind. I thought you copy-and-pasted the old entry and just added an extra line.