Discussion WesternAnimation / YoungJustice

Already done. Not sure why it wasn't done before.

Catch Phrase? As far as I know, Sick of Hearing It isn't a trope... yet.

^^Agreed. Let's not forget too that Robin is just as likely to throw a batarang as he is to throw a punch.

And you're far more likely to see Black Canary throw a hero on his backside - including Superboy - than you are to see her use her superpower. In fact, the first time you see her superpower in action... it's Amazo using it.

I've seen petitions added on pages before. It seems reasonable to have it on as a short term solution. If the petition goes no-where and the show stays cancelled its not really difficult to take it off.

She used her telekinesis near the start of the fight, which he took pretty easily. I have no idea what shapeshifting could have done in the fight, as it wouldn't have increased her actual attack strength. As for her super strength, I bet that she's weaker than Captain Marvel or Superboy, so she didn't need to try before realizing that she wouldn't win that way. I'd say they pretty much covered her powers gambit, and only her psychic powers could have done anything different.

Just for reference, Word of God has confirmed that Martians are stronger than humans, but weaker than Kryptonians; Despero was definitely packing enough raw strength and toughness that M'gann's super strength wouldn't have been much good against him.

As noted, when the question first arose they were in the middle of a mission. He's not going to take five minutes out of the mission to look it up. After that it just became a recurring joke with him. Real definitions, grammar and/or syntax not required.

I can personally attest that this is Truth in Television. My family has a running joke with the "word" strategetize.

Robin can hack into the Justice League's systems. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need Batman to teach him how to google something. I think you're reading too much into what was just a joke.

Thank you. Rule of Funny does make a lot of sense, and yes I do read into jokes, which is probably why I'm fickle when it comes to comedy.

I believe there is an official Wiki policy on page lengths, and pages over a certain length are to be split into sections. However, I'm not sure what those requirements are, does anybody remember the actual length where the split should happen?

Did something happen to it?

Yes it appears to have been deleted some time ago. I don't know who did it, but I personally didn't mind since there was quite a flame war regarding the Joker's appearance in "Revelation". If the Nighmare Fuel page is restored, may we please remove the Natter about the Joker? The page is about what people found scary, not a place for arguing over a character.

Well, as taken from the page, Mythology Gags are "Often seen in Revivals, Reboots or Series Franchises, when an element from the previous version of the show (or from the previous show in the Series Franchise) is referenced or seen in some way"

So Young Justice, as another Continuity Reboot of the DC universe, should really be in the Myth Gag column. Basically: Mythology Gags are for all DC related references, Shout Outs for all non DC references.

And I reworked it to just say it's a reference to the Justice Lords, since that's more in keeping with JBK 405's concern that it wasn't an exact match before.

But a continuity reboot only takes place in the "same franchise". The DCAU was it's own franchise, with Batman, Superman, Static Shock, The Justice League, JLU, etc. Young Justice isn't part of the DCAU franchise, it's a part of the DC franchise, but the DC franchise is so large that I really doubt everything example of an inter-DC Shout-Out is, in fact, a mythology gag. Now, if they built off of Young Justice, and made spin-off shows in the same universe, I'd call those mythology gags, but when they are from two different shows... I just can't see it. :/

I think you're confusing Mythology Gag with Continuity Nod. Continuity Nod is the one where one work in a Series Franchise makes a shout out to another work in the franchise.

And I don't understand, why do think the size of the DC universe makes the references not Mythology Gags? We've got an entire page there of Myth Gags Sherlock has to the extensive collection of original Doyle stories.

This conversation is (largely) irrelevent since I maintain it's not a Mythology Gag, Shout-Out or Continuity Nod at all, due to the lack of any kind of reference, action, pose, dialogue, or meta-commentary. All we have are a group of six characters that were on the team in another show. It doesn't match the line-up of Justice League exactly, and there has been no kind of reference made at all (Nobody says "Do you wonder what it would be like if we were the whole Justice League?" or "I always imagined we'd meet when we united to fight off an alien invasion" or anything of the sort). We don't even know what they've done while missing.

The simple fact that they chose Hawkgirl and John Stewart instead of Hawkman or Hal Jordan doesn't mean anything, since they exist in the show and have already been used for their own events (And they're in the comcis, too).

There is no indication of any sort that the writers meant for this to refer to the DCAU series, and a Mythology Gag (And Shout-Out) has to be intentional. Unless it's a direct reference in the show we need an official commentary, and without that it's just a coincidence.

The fact they picked John and Hawkgirl certainly means something. And unless you can give a reason why the selection of those six made sense in-universe, there's certainly something meta about it. You may not like it, but we're all going to have to come to some sort of middle ground here, because otherwise the entire page is sooner or later going to end up being locked.

Either way, come to a compromise. No more taking things in and out 10 more times.

Not to be an ass (Although, admitedly, I'm aware it's coming across as ass-ish), compromise is not the answer. Something either fits the trope or it doesn't, and considering we don't know what they did while on their mission we have no reason to assume it doesn't make sense for it to be Hawkgirl or John. Tropes are listed based on what happens in the series and what is confirmed based on Word of God; as it is all we have right now is a coincidence unless there is some kind of reference within the show, or some kind of confirmation outside of the show. There's only so many characters on the show (Twenty league members total), eventually every combination of characters is going to come up, and they will all be coincidence unless we have some kind of indication that it was deliberate.

That's not me being stubborn, that's Wiki policy to keep the Shout-Out, Expy, Captain Ersatz and other such pages from overflwing with "This is clearly a reference to XXXXX!" that can mean a hundred different things based on viewer interpretation.

Oh, the 6 members attacked some alien species that look like green versions of the genomorphs. It's in the commercial for next week's episode, see 0:06 - 0:08.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOGOjhFBu4M

And even assuming just 20 members and we just choose 6 of them, there's well over 30,000 possibilities. Not every combo is going to pop up without some sort of reason.

Okay, I think I have a compromise, actually. There is an Ask Greg question here asking

Were the six Leaguers in "Auld Acquaintance" who were unaccounted for(Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Hawkwoman and John Stewart) a reference to the Justice League cartoon, since the show featured an near identical line-up, or was it just a coincidence?

If Word of God is that it's not a coincidence, then we can discuss if it's a mythology gag or a Shout-Out at that point in time.

Does that sound agreeable to everyone?

Absolutely; if Greg says it's not a coincidence then it's a Mythology Gag (Or Shout-Out, or Continuity Nod, or.....) no question.

My objection is not, and has not been, "I disagree," it's "Whether I agree or not is immaterial, there's not enough support in the show." Once there is support I go away.

I'm honestly fine with just about anything so long as the edit war stops.

Not burst anyone's bubble, but the front page clearly states we don't need citations. Not only that, but it will take MONTHS just for him to answer that one question. I suggest we just put it in as a Shout Out, mainly because the DCAU is not Earth-16.

As long as it doesn't turn into an edit war, feel free to argue and judicate your side through the normal channels. This was mainly about stopping it from being added and removed over and over.

And again, Mythology Gag is where any DC related refrences go, Continuity Nod where any previous episode related refrences go, and Shout-Out where any refrences that don't fit into those catagories go. We should really put together a ven diagram or something for these...

It's very true that citations are not required, we are not Wikipedia and sourcing is not a big part of our style. However, despite our informality, the idea is that a Shout-Out or Mythology Gag or Continuity Nod (Or any other related trope) needs to be deliberate and intentional; a coincidence is just a coincidence, even if it coincidentally matches another work and could be a Shout-Out (Or Mythology Gag or Continuity Nod or....).

My point, which I still stick to, is that without some kind of dialogue, or pose or event or anything like that, simply having a lineup which almost matches the lineup of a different show shouldn't count. We have no indication that this is a deliberate reference, since they didn't even match it exactly. I hate the 'Slippery Slope' argument (I really do, if it's often logically flawed and relies on a hypothetical result that might never come to pass at all), but if this counts as a Mythology Gag, then why doesn't every scene where Batman & Superman are together count as a Mythology Gag to World's Finest (Either the comic series or the episode of Superman The Animated Series)? Why doesn't having Tim Drake as Robin count as a Gag to The New Batman Adventures?

It's just so vague, a character lineup that almost (But doesn't) match the line-up of a different show.

But it fits perfectly with the Justice LORDS from the Justice League, who's existence caused the JL a lot of trouble during the first two seasons of Unlimited.

Yeah, the Justice Lords (a group of 6 justice league members who went evil and did terrible things in DCAU JL) are those exact 6 members who disappeared for 16 hours and wrecked up that alien world. The Justice Lords are unique to that DCAU universe, there are no other iterations of that group, so the slippery slope examples aren't great comparisons. This is far more specific.

And again, we know from the makeup for the symbols on the Justice League's ID cards, Nightwing's logo design, the staff being people who worked on the old show, etc. that these creators are aware of the DCAU and reference it.

Another possible example: if we have an episode in the near future where the 4 members who made up the original Young Justice team in the comics go on a mission with just them (since we're only missing 1 now), would we consider that a Mythology Gag?

If they were gathered together specifically for that episode then yes (Or faced an enemy of the original team, or replicated some move of the original team, or....), but if all of them are on the Team and just happen to spend that episode working together then no, that wouldn't be a Mythology Gag unless there was some indication that it happened on purpose. As I've been saying, that's the difference between a Mythology Gag and a coincidence: Intention.

Now, with today's episode and the revelaion that the six members were used to ferment mistrust and hatred of the League then I might be willing to just back down from this issue, because now there is more than just "Six characters who were important in another series," but that's because we've gotten an expansion on what occured. It now is matching the old series in a way that's more than just purely coincidental, since we're getting similar themes and story progression.

New information changes perspective.

people were inferring from the commercials for season 2 at the time that those 6 members had been doing bad things. Think that's why it was added so soon after auld acquaintance aired.

Inferences can be wrong, and even implications can be misleading (We even have a trope for that). Informal or not, until we actually know what's going on we shouldn't be putting our own personal theories onto the main pages, especially not tropes like Mythology Gag, since that one is based around specific context and intention, not just solely what occurs on-screen.

And now we know. Thank you again to loracarol for the solution.

That snapping sound was the sound of Artemis biting down on a pill. That pill is what stopped her heartbeat. Look closely when they recap how they faked Artemis's death and it can be seen in her mouth right before she bites down.

coma drug in her mouth. just bite down to activate.

I believe it does fit; they might not be strictly biological (Although the wood one is), but they're 'living' beings stuck together.

I deleted it; like Heartwarming, Awesome, Funny, Tearjerker, Nightmare Fuel, etc. it has its own sub-page where we're supposed to list examples.

That's what I thought, but it's not there yet

It is now.

Goodnight Everybody!! :D

I still say it's too early to say. If they don't show up again for most of the season, they yes, it's Put on a Bus. However, if they continue to show up in their civilian identities (or rejoin the team soon), then they were never really gone. I'm not sure WHEN exactly we'll be able to say that they're Put on a Bus, but as it stands now, they were gone for 3 episodes and have now been absent for 1 episode.

Depends on where Beast Boy's story goes. It's either a Continuity Nod or a Chekhov's Gun. Guess you could put it in Continuity Nod for the time being.

I didn't notice them in that episode, where did they appear?

hmm...school kid with the dreads and the other with blond hair and a beanie during the Hall of Justice tour sequence?

This all started because one of the staff said in a interview Virgil would be showing up somewhere in season 2. Though hey, given how La'gann first showed up in the background in "Downtime", I wouldn't put it past them.

Early-Bird Cameo is for when they appear in a separate related work. (the comic, the main DC universe, a movie, etc) If they did become regulars, it would be Ascended Extra or Chekhov's Gunman, depending on their role in season 2's plot.

majority of examples seem to be playing with trope in different ways:

-M'gann learned english (justified)

-Lobo doesn't speak english (subverted) till he uses a translator (double subverted)

-Kroloteans don't speak english at all, despite their spy robots (inverted)

-Rannians can't translate at all, Strange has to play charades for weeks to open communication (Played For Laughs)

-Strange quoting Lewis Carroll is nonsense even with translator activated (zig zagged)

and so on

Those Subversions are actually Aversions, but your point stands

no, there's way too many overlapping tropes. just split them up into alphabetical folders if you're finding issues with page navigation.

I utterly agree with Magestad. Not only for the sake of organization but for the sake of not having every single thing from Season 2 be in spoilers given how vastly different it is.

Moreover there isn't that much overlap at all, and for when there's overlap we can have the whole third folder "tropes found in both" going on. Sort of a no-brainer.

a "tropes found in both" folder is a definite no-no if you're worried about all the season 2 tropes having spoiler tags.

I mean if you really want to try it. I'm just worried that there's going to be an extreme amount of trope overlap that will either leave a season 2 folder completely empty, or artificially inflate the character length of the page as a whole.

Eh, I just think that this is gonna be comparable to Digimon between seasons 1 and 2 (each have their own entire page), in that they take place in the same universe but after a major time jump, focusing on a greatly expanded cast of characters and an arc that, while related to the previous season's, is largely independent.

Sure, there's trope overlap, but we're essentially talking about two different shows in the same universe by now. Looking at the summaries of upcoming episodes it's pretty clear we aren't turning back.

If we reach that point then there actually should be two separate pages (Young Justice and Young Justice: Invasion), since trying to have different sections for each season will just end up being overly convoluted and confusing, with a lot of duplications.

I, personally, do not believe we're at that point just yet, but if we do then it should be a full split.

I'd like to point out that the series with a very similar time skip/renaming, Justice League Unlimited, does not have any such separation of the first and second seasons. Just something to consider.

"Funny Aneurysm" Moment. make sure to put it on the YMMV tab though.

I'd definitely say Harsherin Hindsight rather than "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, given it wasn't really a joke to begin with. Nothing funny became unfunny.

It includes offhand comments too, and I'd say this one pretty closely matches the trope namer (Buffy season 4), where it's just an offhanded not particularly funny moment that becomes extremely depressing later on.

Harsher in hindsight is for instances were the comment or event is already negative, but only becomes more negative later.

I still don't really understand what the spoiler is. I mean yes, spoilers: there's a Time Skip, but what else exactly about that plot development is spoiling people? Because otherwise it's just a Time Skip.

And a 7th Episode Twist between two distinct seasons is just a plain old Retool.

That is the spoiler. It's something that is a spoiler for anybody new to the show, but is such an inherent part of the show from season two and on that it can't be hidden because then you simply couldn't discuss season two at all. Situations like that are not hidden under spoiler tags, but they are marked as First-Episode Spoiler, Late-Arrival Spoiler, etc.

Retool is already on the page covering the shift.

Well, then guess it's a First-Episode Spoiler for Season 2? anyone trying to explain season 2 will instantly spoil the fact there's a Time Skip, so as long as it's specified that it's for Season 2, is probably fine.

It would only be a Late-Arrival Spoiler if the timeskip was in season 1 and then season 2 spoiled that, or if in the future season 3 spoils the time skip here.

Well, doesn't that just make it justified? Or even deconstructed? It's still an adaptation where two magic users that used to be distinct have been merged into one character. Now if Zatara had ever been Fate in the main dc continuity, that would be different. But Fate's pretty much just Kent and Hall (with a few others in there)

Anyway, as to the Robin point: They've always featured his hacking heavily in this series, which was always Tim Drake's bag, not Dick's. I mean the computer thing was there when they announced Drake, he hacked Ra's entire network once, it was always a defining trait of Robin III, and not Robin I. And when it was just that, I didn't think that necessarily meant Composite Character, even with the fact Drake had been the one in the old Young Justice.

But now that he's wearing one of Drake's costumes? I think it's pretty clear they've been actively borrowing from Drake the whole time.

I'll withdraw the contestation given the hacking on Robin, but Fate/Zatarra still doesn't pass mustard.

The point is that, right now, they're not one character. There's Dr. Fate and there's Zatarra. Fate is a Lord of Order, Zatarra is a stage magician and father. They're not one character with elements of both, Fate just happens to be using Zatarra's body. If, for example, Zatarra had always been Dr. Fate or had some sort of history with helmet it'd be a composite, adding elements of the Fate character to Zatarra, but as it is they're still two distinct characters.

Legacy Character is the trope you want, where one character takes over duties, responsibilities and the costume/title of another, but they're still two distinct characters.

I agree Zatara/Fate is legacy, but that's an inter-continuity trope, not an adaptation one.

Let me try to reword: John Zatara in YJ is a combo of John Zatara and Hector Hall from the comics, as this Zatara takes the elements of Hall's relation to the Fate identity. Does this seem a more acceptable description to you?

Not really, no, since what part of Hector Hall's identity does John Zatara have? Similar family members? A similar history? Similar training? Similar personality?

The trope is more than just "A similar thing happened to both characters," and once you get past "Unwilling host of Dr. Fate" there's no connection at all.

New screenshots include Nightwing, so the the Robin with Tim Drake's costume might just be Tim Drake. So I removed Robin from the Composite Character examples until Saturday.

Did not see that coming. welp, entirely moot then.

Nobody's responded to this or helped explain the note as it is listed in Development Gag, so I'm tempted to just cut it out. Can somebody explain what it means that they re-used the voice?

The closest is Where It All Began, but I don't believe that applies, since Santa Prisca isn't where it began (That'd be Cadmus, where they first decided to defy the League, or maybe Happy Harbor, where they first became an official team). I'm not sure if there's a trope for "Goes back to a plot relevant location." Try Lost And Found.

Someone put that back on her entry? Take it off. It doesn't apply to her at all.