I don't like this line for two reasons:
"Whereas the English arguments against independence all too often become rather patronising arguments for why Scotland is rubbish/wouldn't survive on its own."
a)It ignores that the Scottish Unionist voice is against independence just as much, if not more than, the English/RUK voice.
b)Very compelling arguments have been made against independence, and with growing frequency over the past few months. The blanket response by nationalists to ALL arguments against independence, good flawed or otherwise, has been to dismiss them as "scaremongering". It would be desirable if the article didn't reflect that viewpoint, as it is one of the most disingenuous aspects of the separatist movement.
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In the absence of any response, I'm going to write in the main article to argue against the line.
No, you shouldn't. That would be adding in natter, which isn't allowed at all.
Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.
@notafraid: If you think a page says something incorrect, then Repair Dont Respond.
Let's just say and leave it at that.
I'm notafraid, with a new account. Decided to finally address this problem. So I hope my edits aren't out of line.
Edited by FlashSteps
"If you're portuguese, any mention of your nationality in a brazilian website will start a flame war". Look, I'm subscribed to dozens of brazilian Youtube channels, and often read comments. It's not unusual to see someone mention they are portuguese, and I've never seen this bother people. Of course it may happen, but the topic is written as if it's 100% sure. If any portuguese person could share their experiences.
Are there any arguments between North and south Carolina worth adding under the United States folder?
When you're not the father, It's a great big surprise. Thats-a-Maury.
Wild
I was reading this page and I thought this should be mentioned for the South American section:
When it comes to Tango (especially the world famous, La Cumparsita), both Argentina and Uruguay will go into fits as to who claims its origins. The fact of the matter is the style of music developed in communities along the River Plate region, which includes both Argentina and Uruguay. It doesn't help that the author of La Cumpersita, Gerardo Matos RodrÃguez was Uruguayan who also often resided in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
In the Sydney Olympics of the year 2000, Argentina would use La Cumpersita to introduce its athletes, which simply pissed off the Uruguayan government.
...
Nothing new there.
I've often viewed the relationship between Argentina and Uruguay as similar (though still vastly different) to that of Canada and the USA. What Trudeau said about being next to a sleeping giant applies for Uruguay. In fact that little country is squeezed in between two giants who go from being somewhat friendly and helpful to down right spiteful and isolationist. Which for a small country that relies on its biggest trading partners for its own survival can be rather difficult.
Hello everyone,
I just read the "Towards European Entries" folder, and the entry about France bugs me:
"As a whole, the French consider themselves to be one of the few, if not the only civilized country in the world - though they will often make exceptions, varying from people to people, as they may consider anything from history and political system to art, architecture or food as critical factors."
Now maybe, as a Frenchman, I am biased, or I didn't understand the trope; but the way this paragraph is written really looks like plain French-bashing. Most of the entries just mention the kind of topic that can spring Misplaced Nationalism in motion (for instance, "Mistaking a Scotsman, Irishman or Welshmen for an Englishman really annoys some of them.", "If you are Portuguese, any mention of your nationality in a Brazilian website will start a Flame War.", etc); but here, it is basically written that "As a whole", French Are Jerks. Wouldn't that be both out of of topic and out of line? Shouldn't it just say that some Frenchmen really are overly proud of their culture (but with a better wording :))?
PS: If this is just me misunderstanding the topic or the trope, sorry in advance.
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Hello, Mr Ultor,
I would say that "as a whole" needs to go; broad brush insults at a nationality are not the point of the article and just plain rude.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Hello again,
I agree with you; would something like "Making fun of french culture in front of Frenchmen will end badly, as many of them are overly proud of it + do not address the matter of church and state lightly, for it is a controversial issue" be better, as a replacement of the first two entries? Or would that be to much of a Berserk Button kind of entry?
If it's accurate (and used in fiction) it fits. I am not familiar with stereotypes, though.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Okay, I will try to edit it in a tvtropes-friendly and readable way ^^
Thanks for the quick replies!
Removed this about France:
- For another source of friction, France decided to call itself a secular state after expelling Jews and other non-Catholics multiple times and actually being the originating location of the Inquisition. Coincidentally, the secular "French" culture the country is constantly trying to preserve is indistinguishable from Catholic culture. There are also many arguments over whether France's widespread anti-Israel sentiments are due to anti-semitism, partly fueled by the high proportion of anti-semitism in France (every Jew who has spent any time in France has a story, usually involving a trip to a rural area)
As it's probably better to explain than silently cut it off, here is why:
This is coming from my experience as a French-American (though I lived most of my life in France), and as someone mistaken more often for a Jew than for a Christian, for some reason.
AFAICT, there is indeed an anti-Israel resentment in France, as they are seen as being asses to the Palestinians - and a perceived anti-French Israeli tendency. However, it rarely translate to anti-Semitism (apart from violent fringe extremists), which is actually a hughe Berserk Button here since WWII. In fact, I was faced with anti-Christianism, but never anti-Semitism.
What is complicating the issue, however, is that not only some genuire anti-Semites like the comedian Dieudonné are surfing on the anti-Israel sentiment (if they call themselves anti-Zionist, chances are thati's it), but there is a growing trend to use that to troll the rather impopular current government, precisely beause of the general Berserk Button status anti-Semitism has. Which is stupid, certainly, but has actually little to do with actual wide-spread anti-Semitism, or misplaced nationalism for that matter. In fact, if anyone has it bad, it would be the Muslim.
About France enforcing a Catholic culture, well that's kind of nonsense. France has one of the largest proportions of Atheists in the world, half its Catholics declare not even believing in God and Muslim are becoming a sizeable proportion of the population. There is even a quite large, if relatively mild anti-Catholic trend in France - you will rarely hear good things about Catholics in the French media, for example.
France is often proud of being a secular state, some French even see themselves as heirs of Robespierre, which is indeed a source of Misplaced Nationalism (which I included in the "see themselves as the best country"), but there are reasons for that.
Edited by 172.25.113.50 Hide / Show Replies
That entry is questionable as far as factual accuracy is concerned, so yeah, good cut.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
"It should be noted, that although many Americans can and will identify themselves based on their state of origin e.g., Californian/Texan/etc (even outside of the US, though it tends to be more often used in the US) almost everyone from the US will view their state and national identity as complementary and interchangeable." I don't want to start a flame war or anything but I wonder if this is now changing with concepts of state sovereignty - and even the legal authority of a state to secede from the Union - being discussed in the media and in society more these days. I am not offended by the above quote or anything but I do know that for me, personally, my state and national identities are NOT interchangeable.
Hey! It's over a year! (feels a lot shorter, fighting alone can really do that). And yeah, I'm back again, this time changing my Argument to: "I don't like the Tone of the Entry, still sounds like we're irrational and wrong. Can we make it more even?"
The "America Controversy" is a serious issue, at least it is for more than half the population of the landmass. At least we could mention that it's a response to USA long history of imperialism and oppression against Latin American nations (by the way, that's why we hate you. And yeah, I know it's really the CIA but that's the way people are, sorry)
Edited by MakiP Hide / Show Replies
Sorry, sorry. On a personal note, your 2 Continent model makes Central America part of North America. And it's really disconcerting finding out you're a North-American after a lifetime of considering yourself a Central-American
What, the "No, please stop and go the hell away" wasn't clear last time?
We don't care about your agenda. At all.
Once more: You are only being an example of exactly what this trope is. Please stop it.
Folks, calm down a bit.
Also, Mr Death is right: A "serious" issue is not wanted here due to Righting Great Wrongs and Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment. An "informative" issue might be, but I can't see any worth of it between all this arguing.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I just want the entry to be less condescending. Is that too much to ask?
^I think it would help to make the objection a bit more clear, e.g by actually pointing out which part exactly is in need of this.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Okay, I hate the "Single-Issue Wonk" most. It implies an irrational reaction to a minor thing. The issue of America is not a minor thing, it is a very important issue with political, social and ideological ramifications, at least in this side of the Language Barrier. So I would like you didn't compare us with Fanboys/Fangirls who can't get over their ship was sink.
Second the last paragraph sounds to me like the Editor making excuses to justify being right. And I think it's important to point out that America was named after Amerigo Vespucci, the cartographer who realize the landmass was a new continent and not Asia; that happened about a century and a half before the reference given in the article for the name of the British Colonies, and about a century before the Arrival of the Mayflower and the founding of the Thirteen Colonies And this isn't an argument because I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Spain also called their colonies "America"
Edited by MakiP
No, Single-Issue Wonk does not imply that the "thing" is minor. Take the time to read through that article, and you'll see that the trigger can be anything. Quite frankly, I have seen plenty of South Americans turn into obsessive, hateful loons if a person so much as says "American" in an English-language discussion.
Personally I don't see the point in bringing up Amerigo Vespucci. As I already told you, the English-speaking world does not recognize the Americas as one single continent. Yet even though we see two landmasses where you see one, North America and South America are still named for Amerigo Vespucci.
Also, as far as I know, Spain did not call its colonies "America." They divided their holdings into the Viceroyalty of New Spain, Viceroyalty of Peru, Viceroyalty of New Granada, and the Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata. This started as early as 1535.
I figured it out! It's a philosophical issue, with cultural and sociopolitical implications. Considering the US's History of Imperialism and the, shall we say, "complicated" relationship between the United States and Latin America, it should be understandable why we interpret the "America" thing as an expression of cultural imperialism and why we take a defensive position in this discussion (or any discussion regarding US politics really)
And for the record, the usage of "America" for the New World goes back to 1507 (and it was reffered to what we now know as "South America")
I'm adding an intra-national example of the United States, and putting it in the Towards North American Countries section.. I hope that's okay?
I must be a masochist. I'm back, and I attempt to bring the "America Issue" back on the table. There's something wrong with me, but I have to do this.
To be clear, I'm not trying to convince anybody that America should be consider a continent. I don't think there's a wright answer for that. What I want is TV Tropes to stop calling Spanish-speakers "Single Issue Wonks" regarding this issue. This because I consider this term implies an irrational obsession with an irrelevant subject. First of all the "America Issue" is not irrelevant; it's very important, in fact I believe President Obama himself admitted it was an important issue (I believe, I'm not sure and I can't find the source, I apologize). And second the preoccupation with this subject and it's possible implications is not irrational; if you look into it, you might find all the greatest thinkers of Latin America share this point of view.
What I'm trying to say is: I want this subject to be taken seriously, not brushed aside as a handful of crazy Latin Americans acting out of resent for the USA or arrogance. Thank you
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Fine.
We'll take it seriously.
Somewhere else. Somewhere that is not a site dedicated to cataloguing MEDIA.
Go away with this issue. Please.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
How many times do we have to say it?
You want to force your viewpoint on others, based on the views of your nationality.
This is exactly the type of thing that this whole article points out is wrong.
How are you not getting that?
The hypocrisy is simply amazing. Maki P, thanks for proving Double Standards are alive and well.
Edited by Exploder
@Cyan Angel - If we're not going to take this things seriously can't we just get rid of it instead?
@Mr Death - I'm not trying to force my viewpoints, you're entitled to your own viewpoints. I'm just asking respect for what is serious issue.
@Exploder - Why am I a hypocrite? Could you explain it to me?
Well, I knew this was gonna go this way. I had to try anyway. I'll stay as long as I get my answers, then you'll never see me again. I just don't have the energy to do this again, specially not with the same people.
Edited by MakiP
Sorry I had a brief outburst of Emotion here and I had to erase it, I apologize
Edited by MakiP
No. No, we goddamned can't.
It's a Useful Notes namespace, providing a little bit of lighthearted information. This is not an essay site.
Go away. Please.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Away on the wind~
Thats what I get for editing at 2AM.
Thank you for fixing the grammar on that, Mr Death,
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
You know, this is why the people like me do this things, You just don't get it! (And for the record it's not vandalism, at least I honestly believe I'm doing the right thing). I was born in America, I've lived in America my entire life; but somehow I'm NOT an American because I wasn't born in the United States of America. At least that's what that means for us, and seeing that the US actively tried to take over several Latin-american nations and later supported Dictatorships that helped US interests, it should be easy to understand why the issue it's so important for us; United States (the country as an entity, not the people) has oppressed our people, conspired with traitors, and tried to take our culture and our identity (that's by the way the reason people assume it's arrogance, I guessed ignorance. I apologized) Now, America is one continent, I checked Wikipedia in several languages and most of them agree in that fact. So, there is a continent called America, but no everyone agrees on that, that does not make sense; how can we lived in a globalized World if we can't agree on the division of Continents? And something else that makes no sense is the fact that according to the "Two-Continent" idea Central America is part of North America, that's completely absurd because I am a Central American and I've never even heard, nor has anyone I know. Can anyone explain to me, how is that I belong to a continent I never even knew existed?
I'll shut up now, it's late and I'm raving; but I just want to make clear that this IS a big deal, and this discussions are completely necessary. And this issue is not about "political correctness" or "misplaced nationalism"; it's about globalization, and identity and Latin Americans being rigthfully resented with the United States, because all the horrible things it has done to us. Good Night. And please lets us discuss this in a proper environment, cool-headed and alert
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No, you're not getting it.
You're from Costa Rica. Your native language is Spanish. In Spanish you use the word "Americano" to mean "Person from the American continents."
You're basing your perception of other languages on your native language's gentilics, and your native culture's perception of continents.
There is no one single American continent to English-speaking people. There is only North America and South America. "North American" in English does not mean the same thing as "Norteamericano" in Spanish. To English-speaking people, it means "Person from North America." It does not mean "Person from the United States" in English.
You have no understanding of the "false friends" concept, words that sound similar to other words in another language but mean very different things.
Or rather, you refuse to understand, because you keep screaming about how "offensive" it is that you can't use a similar-sounding word from another language the way you use it in your native language.
Then you try to vandalize articles and demand others submit to changing their language's word definitions to match yours.
And then you try to justify it by bringing up a political sob story about how those evil imperialist Yanqui devils have bullied and tormented South and Central American nations, like you're fixated on the idea that the Americans knowingly and deliberately took the word (in English) for themselves.
The history behind the English language's usage of the word "American" has nothing to do with politics of the United States. It predates the United States by generations. All you're doing is providing long paragraphs of angry and offensive Red Herring Fallacies.
Even more insidiously, what you are doing is cultural imperialism. The imposition of a foreign viewpoint or civilization on a people. You are acting out the very thing you hate, if your constant screaming about oppression is any indication, and you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.
So just drop it. Accept that other cultures and languages do things differently from your own.
Edited by TrevMUN
First of all thank you for supporting one of my points. English and Spanish have different definitions of "America", "American", "North America" and "South America". In a globalized world that makes no sense and it's not practical.
Second I have not "[kept] screaming about how "offensive"" something was. I said it once.
Third This is NOT about languages, it's about ideology and identity. Words have power, more than people realize, that's why I'm doing this. I hate the ideology behind certain uses of languages and I'm trying to change that ideology.
Fourth From the Online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary: Vandalism: willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property My actions were not malicious, I completely and honestly convinced I was doing the right thing; and I did not commit an act of destruction, I attempted to fix what I perceived as a mistake. It might have been wrong, but it was not vandalism
Fifth I did not know the historical origin of the usage of the word "American" in English, I apologize. However you must consider something, you say that "American" used to mean "Person living in the colonies of British America", doesn't "British America" means that it's the part of Great Britain that is in America? Do you think the Spaniards never called their colonies "America"? And don't you know that regions change their names all the time? Mexico was called "Nueva España" (or New Spain) before the Independence, and they changed it when the political context changed; the political context of the Americas have changed isn't time to change a few names?
Sixth Er... I think I'll just skip Sixth, nothing good will come out of pointing out the irony of a U Sican accusing a Third-Worlder of "Cultural Imperialism".
Seventh and Final: Why is trying to regain my identity as an American is a bad thing? Why can't I be a part of this continent? Why in order to speak English I have to surrender a part of who I am, just because the usage of the language is different from my own language? Please tell me Why.
- "In a globalized world that makes no sense and it's not practical."
A globalized world does not mean the world needs a globalized, homogeneous culture. It's absurd, and offensive, to believe that you have the right to force your viewpoints on other cultures.
It's like an English-speaking person demanding that Germans, Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians use the English meaning of the word "gift" (a present) as opposed to the meaning it has in their languages (poison).
Haven't you ever been taught to respect how other cultures and languages do things?
If I were speaking in Spanish or Portuguese, I would use the Spanish or Portuguese-language gentilics to refer to my nationality. I would use "Americano" to describe myself as being from the American continent (as the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking people see it), and "Estadounidense" to refer to myself as a person of the United States.
But we aren't using Spanish or Portuguese here. We're using English. So do as English-speaking people do.
It's advice that goes back to the days of Saint Augustine. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do, and when in another culture, do as they do."
It's precisely what U.S. government websites do in their Spanish language versions.
That is respect for the viewpoint and differing meanings in similar-sounding words of other languages.
Something which you completely and utterly lack.
- "However you must consider something, you say that "American" used to mean "Person living in the colonies of British America", doesn't "British America" means that it's the part of Great Britain that is in America?"
So what? That was how the British and colonial British used the word "American." To refer to their colonists and those living in their colonies.
The British didn't suddenly stop calling their former colonies "Americans" just because they rebelled and formed the United States. Neither did the Americans. The gentilic was still used to describe the United States of America.
- "And don't you know that regions change their names all the time? Mexico was called "Nueva España" (or New Spain) before the Independence"
... Which was almost two centuries ago, and they changed their name because they had become an independent nation, not because people from another country were screaming and bullying them into doing it. Mexico has been called "Mexico" in some form or fashion ever since then, even whenever the nation's style of government changed.
Sorry, but that's not "all the time."
- "The political context of the Americas have changed isn't time to change a few names?"
You have quite an overstated opinion of yourself if you think that the political situation of the Americas has changed just because you want to push your viewpoints on another language.
- "This is NOT about languages, it's about ideology and identity."
No, it very much is about language. You are consciously, stubbornly, and deliberately bullying other cultures and languages into trying to do things your way.
- "Why is trying to regain my identity as an American is a bad thing? Why can't I be a part of this continent?"
Here we go again, with the delusional and single-minded insistence that you've somehow lost an identity and that you're somehow not part of a continent just because another language has always had a differing viewpoint.
You've always had your identity as a "Person of the American continent" in Spanish. You never lost it.
You didn't lose your identity just because another language and the cultures associated with it have other viewpoints.
- "Er... I think I'll just skip Sixth, nothing good will come out of pointing out the irony of an American accusing a Costa Rican of "Cultural Imperialism"."
Fixed that for you. The Cold War perception of "three worlds" is long outdated. Odd that you would willingly call yourself a "Third Worlder" anyway, when you're so adamant on forcing your viewpoint on another language and culture.
Besides, you're not making yourself look any more polite or considerate with that offhand insult. It's pretty clear you're thinking "I'm a poor innocent victim of Yanqui aggression! How dare that Yanqui devil accuse me of being a bully!"
Unfortunately for you, what you are doing here is a textbook example of cultural imperialism. You are being an obnoxious bully. You are being a Jerkass.
At this point I am fully convinced that you rant and rave about having "no identity" in English simply because you want to bully and harass other cultures into doing things your way.
For you, it's not so much about identity as it is having your culture dominating other cultures.
Edited by TrevMUN
A globalized world does not mean the world needs a globalized, homogeneous culture. It's absurd, and offensive, to believe that you have the right to force your viewpoints on other cultures.
Huh? What? When did I imply anything about culture? I don't think any nation has to change their culture. Except maybe if their practices violate human rights or affect other nations culture (that does not violate human rights).
It's like an English-speaking person demanding that Germans, Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians use the English meaning of the word "gift" (a present) as opposed to the meaning it has in their languages (poison)
Again, What? how is that the same? Poisons don't get political. Continents do.
You've always had your identity as a "Person of the American continent" in Spanish. You never lost it. You didn't lose your identity just because another language and the cultures associated with it have other viewpoints.
Ok, I'm a person from America, what am I called? How are you gonna call me? And if I'm an American how do I difference myself from the people from the United States of America?
Edited by MakiP
Translations are never going to be exact. That's a basic tenet of the study of language, and you're pissing into the wind if you think you're going to change that, "globalization" or not.
You want to distinguish yourself from someone who lives in the United States? Use the name of your country. That seems to be what you're trying to force on us, so why's it so difficult for you?
Edited by MrDeath
- "Huh? What? When did I imply anything about culture? I don't think any nation has to change their culture. Except maybe if their practices violate human rights or affect other nations culture (that does not violate human rights)."
Then how about dropping your narrow worldview that the whole world must conform to your way of thinking? You've already been told to knock it off by the mods in the Trope Repair Shop thread
discussing your actions here.
- "Ok, I'm a person from America, what am I called? How are you gonna call me? And if I'm an American how do I difference myself from the people from the United States of America?"
In Spanish, you would be called "Americano" because the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking cultures view the New World as a single continent.
In English, you would be called "North American" because the English-speaking cultures (and quite a number of other cultures in fact) views the New World as two continents, not one. This is why you hear the New World referred to collectively as "The Americas" in English.
Costa Rica is in Central America, but Central America is the southernmost portion of North America. If you're not going to be referred to by your nationality (Costa Rica), it's more likely you would be called "Central American" to further clarify what region you're from.
That is precisely what I was trying to explain to you previously. The English-speaking cultures do not recognize North and South America as a single continent like Spanish and Portuguese-speaking cultures do—but just because they have a different viewpoint does not mean you've lost your identity. You still have it in Spanish. Your worldview as a Spanish-speaking person didn't suddenly become irrelevant when learning a new language.
This perception of two New World continents and not one also extends to other cultures. Offhand I recall that the countries of the former Soviet Union, as well as the countries of Asia, view the New World as North and South America (though the former USSR countries and Japan view Asia and Europe as a single continent, Eurasia).
In either case, both languages have clear differences between words indicating "Person from the United States of America" and "Person from the Americas." What you can't do (and I would have expected you to have already learned this in your English lessons) is make assumptions on how another language "should be" based on your native language.
Considering that the world is hardly agreed on how many continents there are, or of what landmasses those continents are comprised, your sworn "crusade" to force the Spanish-speaking viewpoint on the rest of the world is incredibly arrogant and self-important.
Edited by TrevMUN
Yes I replaced every use of the word "American" as meaning "someone from the United State of America" with my own term "United Statian". I have no regrets; if being labeled a Troll is what it takes to regain my identity as an American, then so be it
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You're making a much bigger deal out of it than it is. The whole world calls us Americans (when they're feeling civil, anyway), we call ourselves Americans. What's the problem?
Please do not do things like this.
It is likely to cause a Flame War. This page is a touchy issue- I do not need anybody coming in and doing something like this. It is unnecessary.
You are the only person who has expressed an opinion like this. If nobody else minds being called an American, then I will revert this.
Please remember that you are not the only person here. If you are the only person who cares about this, do not replace a commonly-used term like 'American' with a made-up word like 'United Statian'. For one, the new term looks clunky. For two- nobody else cares.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
This is also serving as a note to people in the future.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
In Italy, where I live, we say "statunitense" as "cittadino degli Stati Uniti" :D. I never noticed you don't have a term like this.
Come to think of it, what I should have said was that I find offensive the usage of the word "American" to refer exclusively to those native from the United States of America. After all, I was born in America, how come I can't be an American?
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Ah, I misunderstood you before. The country is commonly thought of as "America," which is why the term came into usage. Other countries on the continent don't identify themselves as, say, "Brazil of America" or "Mexico of America," so they're not called "Americans," but referred to by the name of the country itself.
It goes farther than that, Mr Death. Though it does help that the United States was the first nation in the Americas founded from a European colony, the English language usage of the word "American" to mean "Person living in the colonies of British America" goes back as far as 1648. By the time of the American Revolution, the meaning behind the word "American" was firmly rooted.
The problem is that people like Maki P don't realize that, and they try to turn it into an issue of political correctness. The problem stems from the fact that the Spanish and Portuguese languages have their own name for Americans in their own language, and in Spanish and Portuguese, "Americano" means "Person from the American continents."
When they see that the word closest-sounding to "Americano" in their language is used for "Citizen of the United States" in other languages, they wrongly assume that Americans consciously appropriated the gentilic for themselves, and the typical favorite accusation is "the yanquis think they're the only country on the continent" or "they're evil arrogant imperialists."
We would all just get along a lot more nicely if they would look past the "False Friend" phenomenon that is behind this, and accept that other languages have developed terms in different ways from theirs.
In fact, we might even say that what people like Maki P are doing is a form of cultural imperialism, trying to bully other languages into doing things their way.
Edited by TrevMUN
Internet Wanderer
Concerning MakiP's vandalism—Cygan Angel is wrong. MakiP is not the only person to have done this. I have seen trolls and vandals change other pages (such as Eagleland) to remove any trace of the word "American," while usually writing offensive American-bashing statements at the same time.
They almost always come from a Spanish or Portuguese-speaking country, and it happens elsewhere outside of TV Tropes, too.
Before Malchus started the Trope Repair Shop thread, there was an example that had a lot more information concerning the displays of Misplaced Nationalism like what MakiP demonstrated a few days ago.
I'm considering adding it back, with the vitriol removed. People like MakiP, if they're willing to be informed and not simply push their native language's demonyms on other languages, could benefit from understanding the point that was made in the example.
This is what it originally looked like:
- People from Spanish or Portuguese-speaking nations (e.g. Spain, Portugal, Mexico, the countries of South and Central America) can be real Single Issue Wonks toward Americans on the subject of demonyms and etymology. Odds are good you've seen it happen at least once—Spanish/Portuguese-speaking nationals bashing Americans for calling themselves "American." The reason this happens is twofold.
First, people from Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries are taught that the Americas are not two continents, but one. In the United States, Canada, most English speaking countries and Asia, the Americas are referred to as two separate continents and are always called "North America" and "South America." Thus, where people from the former group would refer to people from the American continents as "Americans" in their own language, people from the latter group would say "North Americans" or "South Americans" in theirs.
Second. Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries often call Americans "United Stateser" (Estadounidense and Estadunidense, respectively), whereas in English and most other languages, Americans are called "American" in some form or fashion. Spanish and Portuguese-speaking nationals, expecting everyone to use their terminology in other languages, assume Americans deliberately call themselves American out of sheer arrogance, and that they are ignorant of the existence of other countries on the "same continent." Needless to say, their assumptions are not accurate—but much hateful Eagleland bashing and Cultural Posturing ensues anyway.
Decided to do it. For posterity and comparison, here's the version I added back. I also took the bit about "USicans" and made it a sub-example, since it's directly related to this.
- People from Spanish or Portuguese-speaking nations (e.g. Spain, Portugal, Mexico, the countries of South and Central America) can be real Single Issue Wonks toward Americans on the subject of demonyms and etymology, bashing Americans for calling themselves "American." The reason this happens is twofold.
First, people from Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries are taught that the Americas are not two continents, but one. In the United States, Canada, most English speaking countries and Asia, the Americas are referred to as two separate continents and are always called "North America" and "South America." Thus, where people from the former group would refer to people from the American continents as "Americans" in their own language, people from the latter group would say "North Americans" or "South Americans" in theirs.
Second. Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries often call Americans "United Stateser" (Estadounidense and Estadunidense, respectively), whereas in English and most other languages, Americans are called "American" in some form or fashion.
This leads some to assume that Americans call themselves American out of ignorance of other countries in the Americas—or out of deliberate arrogance—even though the word's usage had been cemented in the English language a well over a century before the United States was founded.- People prone to this tend to call Americans "USicans" in English (or some derivation thereof), and demand that others do the same—which is another source of Misplaced Nationalism itself.
Guys... I realize this is a sensitive topic, but a significant portion of the "North America" category consists of "THOSE EVIL EUROPEANS ARE BEING MEAN TO US!"
Couldn't we do something about this?
Edited by Barano Hide / Show Replies
I don't see what you're talking about. Many of the examples about bigotry toward Americans have a much wider scope than just Europe.
Case in point:
http://www.australiansabroad.com/expats/tragedy.htm
I think this trope should just be a description-only trope. I don't care what the country, a lot of the examples on the page are turning into whine-bitching of epic proportions. A lot of those can turn into potential Flame Bait quite easily and the trope page could become a rather crappy example of a Self-Demonstrating Article in no time flat.
In fact, I think I'll say as much over at the Trope Repair Shop.
Edited by Malchus Yeah, that avatar's a 'Shop of my real face.
Barano, just as well as some Americans, trained by politics in thinking they are a superior nation, some Europeans react by generalizing this behaviour as an overall American hard wired behaviour falling themselves in a very similar phallacy :). Ingmar
Might as well add a Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement note here. If it gets deleted somehow, or if someone wants to change what it says, this is what i put:
- Warning to Tropers: Please note that if you do plan to add an example, and you might be right, due to heated and differing opinions on the subject please do follow the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment before deciding to do so. Refrain from adding a Justifying Edit and Conversation In The Main Page as well. If you think it is wrong, remove it or discuss about it in the discussion page. And if you think an example deserves to be here and it gets deleted (or you just want to make sure you don't step on anyone's toes), take it to the discussion page and we can sort things out. Do not start an Edit War.
Also, an amendment to to the above post; THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE POSTING FIRST.
Make sure the tone is neutral, it is not biased, and will not easily incite people.
Edited by CyganAngel There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Away on the wind~
Gundam-
Would you mind terribly much if I edited your examples, to make them less potentially inflammatory?
There are too many toasters in my chimney! Hide / Show Replies
On second thought, actually, I am leaving them as-is.
The one I was concerned about was the major edit to the Australian football example, discussing soccer. But I'm not sure there are enough Tropers interested in the topic to worry about it.
I will leave it aone, but I am keeping a cautious eye on it.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Just in case, i rewritten it for you. If you have any problems, feel free to edit it. I just put it there since soccer vs Aussie Rules vs Rugby debates occasionally pop up here and there. I mentioned it's not as frequent as the American examples, but i just put it there to note that it happens.
- Wait, do I actually have the power to edit other people's remarks? CyganAngel
- Yeah. Nobody really uses them though. Gundamforce
- Okay, this is really cool.
- Yeah. Nobody really uses them though. Gundamforce
I think that the categories should be reorganized to be "Misplaced Nationalism towards that topic" (Ex: Misplaced Nationalism towards North America, South America, Multiple Countries, etc) instead of what we have now since many examples tend to be all over the place. What do you think?
I'm not sure if I should mention this in the main article - but I see it even crop up on this wiki, from time to time.
Hide / Show Replies
Trev-MUN: Removed this—
- 09/Apr/10 at 07:11 PM by Colme 69.156.147.231Added line 150:*** Though there's a 50% probability that the Troll is simply a Canadian looking to trick the two opposing sides into mutually agreeing to hate something else.
Labeling an attempt by a troll "trying" to stop one form of Misplaced Nationalism with another kind of Misplaced Nationalism as a Crowning Moment of Heartwarming comes off as trying in earnest to start some kind of fight here. It begs the question of That Troper's personal beliefs. "Undue Hatred Is OK When It Is Toward Americans?"
Edited by TrevMUN
This needs a TRS thread badly. The subject matter is very controversial even for this website. also this page reads like a poorly written post from a political subreddit.
Edited by namra