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tbarrie
topic
06:11:55 PM Aug 20th 2010
We're seriously accepting examples on the page for plot holes? How is this page not three hundred screens long?

Scaresteam
12:32:20 AM Oct 21st 2011
We could make articles for works with many of them.
173.68.192.213
topic
03:16:31 AM Mar 9th 2011
Droopy Dog in "The Three Little Pups" is an example. The Huckleberry Hound/Wolf/Dogcatcher swallows the television in one scene, in the next scene the television is back in place. Droopy says "Don't ask how we got the television back."
Zaptech
09:45:44 PM Apr 8th 2011
So, add the example.
linnen
topic
01:29:02 PM Apr 2nd 2011
Wolverine was chosen because his 'Healing Factor' allows him to survive being cut-off from his blood supply? [snark] This gets better and better [/snark] Red blood cells only last a few months before being broken down. Good-bye, Hemoglobin. Hello, Anemia. White cells vary greatly, but many of the body's first responders and immune reaction response will last days at most. The rest still have a limit. The good news is that Wolverine will not have to worry about the auto-immune response after a decade or so. The bad news is he will be the super-'Typhoid Mary' for EVERY infectious bacteria, virus, fungi and parasite.

MS 3 KT Mantra ain't going to cut it. They should have settled for a Marvel Vampire.
69.249.101.138
topic
02:45:07 PM Apr 3rd 2011
What, no mention of Equilibrium? The gun swap? That's not a plot hole, it's a plot *black* hole. The IM Db FAQ page for Equilibrium gives a shakily plausible explanation, but also shows how following that explanation all the way through makes it even worse.
Zaptech
09:45:06 PM Apr 8th 2011
There's a button on the main page. It's called "Edit." This is a wiki. Do the math.
Utritum
topic
02:55:10 PM Apr 8th 2011
How the hell are Plot Holes subjective?! I mean, they are occurring because the universe's internal logic suddenly contradicts itself, right?
SpellBlade
03:33:02 PM Apr 8th 2011
Taken from the page:

"In some cases, what one person sees as a plot hole could be seen by another as something that makes sense if enough thought is put into it, or makes sense but was not adequately explained. Examples here will therefore be subjective. "
nuclearneo577
04:09:17 PM Apr 8th 2011
edited by nuclearneo577
But that means that either 1. you are not paying attention, or 2. or came up with some random justification. Doing It For The Art used to say that it was subjective even though it not.
Darkaros
04:46:10 PM Apr 8th 2011
Is that the reason why you removed the entire paragraph of the quote in question?
nuclearneo577
05:06:46 PM Apr 8th 2011
I there really a point of it? Doing It For The Art used to have a paragraph that said that it was subjective.
Utritum
11:11:17 AM Apr 9th 2011
Should we bring it up in the repair shop?
Darkaros
03:03:20 PM Apr 9th 2011
Probably should, or at least bring it up in a forum about subjective tropes. A discussion page like this is a rather obscure place for others to voice an opinion; I don't have one either way, but it's a bit unjustified to pull/call something out as not subjective without a formal concensus (especially since Doing It For The Art also got it's "...this trope is subjective..." description pulled by nuclearneo577; I didn't see any topic in the forums about the change, at least from a brief scan of titles).
nuclearneo577
11:23:56 AM Apr 19th 2011
edited by nuclearneo577
How is Doing It For The Art subjective? It was slapped there because of misuse.
KIRAKIRA
topic
04:17:49 PM Jun 30th 2011
I just watched Star Trek TNG : Descent 1&2 last night. Don't know why it's listed as an example. Hugh, the Borg they previously captured, ultimately creating the situation they're in, tells Riker and Worf about Lore (during part 2), having previously been one of his followers. They don't magically know, it's a distinct, logical, sequence of events. Maybe it was cut to shorten it for TV, but it's definitely on the DV Ds.
ineptizinerating10
topic
04:45:49 AM Sep 14th 2011
edited by ineptizinerating10
I don't want to just add this <new stuff> to the Main Page (if I even could); I want it to be treated correctly, in keeping with the site's expectations. There's no e-mail or contact form for a "Main Dude/Team" or single person to ask about this, so I'm appealing to anyone reading this who feels experienced, knowledgeable, and comfortable enough to make informed decisions about how to best handle it ...

In fact, anyone who feels okay about it can probably just go ahead and add this appropriately, if it is appropriate to do so. Or you can reach me at the e-mail I just created for this specific purpose: "ineptizine +BEFORE+ gmail +PERIOD+ com". I'd be happy to chat about it or be redirected to comments here or told about actions taken. I'm certainly not "HANDS OFF" about this, and welcome feedback about the concept or about how to *properly* introduce it to this wiki. I guess I'm feeling not quite but pretty close to "UP FOR GRABS".

I want to introduce the term "Ineptizine" and the related term "Ineptizine Rating". They don't refer to a new trope; it seems pretty clear to me that they fall under "Plot Hole". So if anywhere, I think they should be mentioned on the "Plot Hole" page. Also, they're terms that I coined; I want to be up-front about that in case it affects treatment.

By the way, I'm also not using any markup tags or anything, not trying to, anyway. The text I propose for inclusion is between the lines of separated dashes.

- - -

Application of, or exposure to, Ineptizine creates unintentional plot holes. If the plot hole is definitely intentional, or acknowledged with a lampshade or in any other way that shows the writer-or-whoever is defintely aware of it, Ineptizine probably isn't involved. Internal consistency should be taken into account; *having* weird rules or realities in a work isn't the result of Ineptizine exposure, but breaking your own rules & realities definitely shows you in(eptizine)haled. Of course, our own reality applies when we're not told otherwise.

An Ineptizine Rating indicates the severity of the plot hole — how much Ineptizine was involved, with a low number indicating a minor plot hole and a high number being an egregious error, the proverbial "plot hole you could drive a truck (/747/cruise ship/skyscraper/star ship/macGuffin) through". Typical Ineptizine Ratings range from 1 to 10 (a common scale), but are inherently subjective, and if you want to make a point, call it an IR:15 if you want. But generally, IR:10 should be enough to point out glaring stupidity on someone's part.

Ineptizine Ratings can be applied to a specific thing, a scene, or an entire work, depending on the speaker's desires. For instance ...

  • Thing: "This show's Ivex Revisionator gets an IR:3 because it's made of tissue paper, but it never shows any effects from fire or rough handling, no explanation. Rarely a major plot point, but still."

  • Scene: "When the Highlander is running through the complex, he's got that sword again, but we saw him leave it behind, stuck in the floor beneath that descending super-diamond-ultra-drill, just two scenes ago! What the heck!?! IR:7 at least!"

  • Entire Work: "Yeah, there was that thing where the thing went wonky, but overall, the episode had little Ineptizine, so I'd give the episode an Ineptizine rating of, mmm, 1."

The terms came about when Carlos Vigil of Milwaukee, WI (just a guy, you know?) misheard a line from one of the *Star Trek* series (*Enterprise* or *Voyager*, he thinks). A character blamed something on anesthesine gas (or referred to it in some way), but Carlos asked his wife, "Did he just say 'Ineptizine'???" They ROTFL and started using the term right away, mostly about *Star Trek* shows at first, but very soon for other things. The term has spread among some of their friends as convenient and amusing shorthand.

Carlos' highest Ineptizine Rating goes to the people who made *Star Trek Generations* — in which the ship's stardrive section is lost as a result of a warp core breach, and the saucer section crash lands on the surface of Veridian III! "Answer me this: How could *all* of the people associated with this movie — the writers, directors, the producers, the guy who gets the donuts, and-if-nobody-else and-even-above-all the bloody ACTORS — have *all* forgotten all the times that warp cores have been ejected on *Star Trek*??? They could not have! The warp core breach wasn't instantaneous and they had time to discuss and react to it. Yet they don't eject it to save the ship and people, and in fact, nobody even *mentions* trying to eject it. Systems fail all the time on *Star Trek* (and in real life); they could have saved this scene and movie from a colossal IR:10+ by adding ONE line: "The Warp Core Ejection System's gone off-line!" In fact, with very slight variation, it's a line that's appeared in the shows, I think more than once. With that line, they could have kept the separation and crash and everything without any reason to think of Ineptizine."

- - -
dontcallmewave
11:01:52 AM Sep 14th 2011
edited by dontcallmewave
...

...

...

...

what
Oberoniss
11:17:32 AM Sep 14th 2011
I think not.
battosaijoe
12:07:34 PM Sep 14th 2011
...no.

...very much no.
Zyffyr
03:22:01 PM Sep 14th 2011
I think even a Big No is insufficient here.
ineptizinerating10
11:54:15 PM Sep 21st 2011
Okay, so just to help you all be clear and helpful, I ask: What exactly are you each objecting to? I'm not objecting to your responses; I'd just like more feedback and conversation.

I get that the first person (dontcallmewave) is saying, "I don't even understand this," with their "what." I thought I wrote pretty clearly and gave enough detail to explain everything. Then again, I do know that some folks just get overwhelmed with much text and literally can't process it. I have no way of knowing if that's happening here.

And the other three don't want ... something. A little more feedback would be helpful though, and more friendly :) . Are you objecting to the term being presented here, or anywhere on the site? Are you objecting to the term itself, just not liking it? Do you think I'm suggesting it as a trope? (I'm not. It's just a way to refer to the degree of ineptitude revealed by a Plot Hole.) Do you just not like the way I wrote the description? *Maaaaaybe* you don't like *Star Trek* or anything derived from it? Something else? Some combination of things?

Well, thanks for any more feedback you can give, guys. And thank you for responding at all.
Jerrik
04:36:25 AM Sep 22nd 2011
To make the objections a little more clear, I think the problem is that there is no reason for us to use the term "Ineptizine" and a lot of reasons for us not to. I'm not trying to be rude, as you have been polite about the whole thing yourself, but I can't see how your idea would add anything to the site.

Some of the problems I can see with your idea are:

1. "Ineptizine" is not a pre-existing term for the concept, and doesn't indicate what the trope is about. The term would just cause confusion for anyone who hasn't read the page, which is something the site has been trying to avoid lately.

2. The scale you've created is, as you say, subjective. Anything that is subjective usually causes problems, as different tropers argue over and have edit wars about whether a trope really applies or how good or bad something is. Subjective tropes are separate from regular ones, and sometimes get all their examples cut if they cause frequent edit wars.

3. A lot of tropes have been changed or cut because they were seen to simply be complaining. Tropes that accused the writers of making mistakes or writing poorly often became bloated as people added examples just to deride the work. "Ineptizine" would likely cause people to add examples of how terrible and stupid the plots are in works that they dislike, rather than have any honest examination of the plot in question. It's better to just avoid that.

4. Mostly, tropes aren't altered unless there is something wrong with them. People can tinker with the description, or add comparisons to other relevant tropes, but the trope itself is left alone unless it's causing problems. If a trope seems to be covering too many things at once, or is full of incorrect examples, or needs a better name, then it's usually discussed in the forums and a solution is found there. As far as I know, there is no problems with the trope right now, so there is no need to change it. And I don't think setting a precedent of altering a trope to suit one specific person is a good idea.

All in all, I can't see any reason to include "Ineptizine" in the trope. Most of the tropers here, as well as myself, were confused as to why you indicated the term "Ineptizine" should be included in the trope at all. As far as I can tell, it wouldn't improve the trope, which is the only reason to make such a change. Again, I'm not trying to be rude to you. You've discussed this politely, which is how things like this should be handled. I just don't think "Ineptizine" needs to be included on this site. Sorry.
ineptizinerating10
11:58:10 PM Oct 9th 2011
edited by ineptizinerating10
Actually, that's an excellent reply, Jerrik! Thanks. None of your reply came off as rude; you answered my initial questions :) . And that's exactly why I brought this up on the discussion page! Now I can see where *your* thoughts lie, anyway :) .

I *certainly* am not suggesting that this is a trope, or something that alters the description of the current trope; I was clear about that in the original post. I agree that altering something to suit one person alone is counter to the definition of, or idea behind, tropes. I also agree that the trope does not *require* a new term to be used in discussing examples, which is what "ineptizine" really is.

The "Plot Hole" page seemed (at first) that it might be the place to drop in a fun & related shorthand term — at least the only place I had seen so far where it might fit in. (I think I recall seeing mention of some sort of place for anything that fit nowhere else, maybe just to give people a place to dump things they couldn't or shouldn't post elsewhere. But I noticed it in passing and didn't take particular note.) I'm seeing that there's consensus among at least five people, who were kind enough to give some feedback, that THIS is NOT the place in any case.

.*Is* there *anywhere* else on this site that it might go without harm, do you think? Your points 2 and 3 are good ones: avoiding pointless flaming and edit wars is A Good Thing(tm) :) .

Folks I've talked with have enjoyed the term, and we've taken to using it, knowing that it's a subjective scale and that numbers assigned can vary. Of course, the folks to whom we've spread the term have also been mostly "Trek" fans, and the term is cute because it's a pun taken directly from mishearing a common "Trek" term once. ("Incompetence" would be as functional, but not as light-hearted, not as fun.) I realized that this site deals with way more TV (and thus way more types of TV) than even I have ever watched — and that it's not unreasonable to think that a reference term based in *Star Trek* wouldn't click with folks who >gasp< (and big *wink*) don't really know *Star Trek*. Heck, I don't recognize or understand a lot of stuff from *Naruto* or *Dragonball Z* or lots of others, so no blame to anyone who doesn't go for everything I go for :) .

... Anyway, I'm not saying that the world needs the word or concepts behind "ineptizine", or that it illuminates the trope "Plot Holes", but I am saying that I think it will add some fun and useful shorthand for a lot of folks. So I wonder where I *can* share it with the people, being all selfless and generous and stuff ;) .

(I know that I type a lot, trying to explain things as fully as possible to lessen the amount of back & forth needed in a conversation. I know some folks don't like to read a lot, and some don't even like to be presented with a lot available to read at one time. Ah well. I can only hope that's not what caused the initial terse responses. Even use of the tropes that I could look up like "What" and "Big No" didn't help me understand the objections, like Jerrik's thoughtful response did. "What" seemed to indicate confusion, which is what made me wonder if the first post was too much reading for dontcallmewave's taste or invoked a milieu he or she isn't familiar with. The others definitely made clear the fact of objection, but that's all.)
crazyrabbits
12:19:57 AM Feb 6th 2012
I have no idea what's going on, but I just wanted to be a part of this legendary thread.
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