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Main Chunky Salsa Rule Discussion

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Larkmarn
Topic
10:45:31 AM Oct 2nd 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
This is being edit-warred:

  • Defied in Fullmetal Alchemist, when Greed has a flunky smash his head off entirely with a sledgehammer in a Self-Mutilation Demonstration in order to prove homunculus regeneration is From a Single Cell.
  • In Mahou Sensei Negima!, Konoka warns the rest of the heroes that she can't heal them if they get their heads squashed into a splatter "so be careful, 'kay?"
    • Don't know the context, but it sounds like the difference between being killed and being injured.
  • Mobile Fighter G Gundam: "Article One of the Gundam Fight International Regulations; A unit whose head section has been destroyed, is disqualified!"
  • Late in Dragon Ball Z Piccolo states that he can heal from any injury that doesn't destroy his head. This was after he was turned to stone, then shattered, then the spell broken (his head was intact, allowing him to regenerate).
    • Okay, this one might be alright. If Piccolo can survive anything that doesn't reduce him to chunky salsa, it seems reasonable enough. The only issue is whether non-gaming examples should count.

SeptimusHeap
11:28:40 AM Oct 2nd 2014
Negima! sounds like a kill, there. I would keep it.
Larkmarn
11:52:00 AM Oct 2nd 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
It sounds like a kill, but my point is that the emphasis seems to be "don't die because I can't bring back the dead" rather than "don't be destroyed because I can't bring back ground hamburger" thus closer to All Deaths Final.

Also, I notice that non-gaming examples got pulled back in about March. Was there any discussion on that? The description doesn't seem like it's written as solely a gaming trope.
SeptimusHeap
12:40:01 PM Oct 2nd 2014
ninjacrat did remove them, and I don't see a reason for their removal, either.
ChaoticNovelist
02:09:27 PM Oct 2nd 2014
  • Full Metal Alchemist: Greed mashing his head sounds like it counts because he chose to mash his head, instead of some other body part. It's a sense of "no matter what part of me you destroy, I'll come back" sort of thing.
  • Negima: I see that as being able to heal any injury EXCEPT ones that destroy the patient's head completly. In other words, it's the only guaranteed fatal injury.
  • Moble Fighter G Gundam: You could say that the gundam itself "dies", in the sense that they are disqualified from the tournament. Pilots are allowed to replace arms, legs in repairs but can't replace the head. Even if the rest of the gundam is in perfect condition, if the head section is destroyed, then the gundam is considered "dead". This is a rule in a tournament that has replaced open warfare.
  • Dragonball Z: I don't see why non-game examples wouldn't count. If someone has a Healing Factor that can do anything short of regrow their head, does it matter if this character is in a game or a tv show or a book? Besides, there's already a webcomic example here.
Larkmarn
03:12:34 PM Oct 2nd 2014
FMA: That's meeting it more than halfway.

Negima: How does death work in the manga? Can the character bring the dead back to life normally? If so, I'd say it's valid. If not, it's not.

G Gundam: I know Gundam quite well. It doesn't count by any stretch.

DBZ: It can be readded if discussion chooses to include non-gaming examples. Currently no one is really saying otherwise.
SeptimusHeap
01:42:06 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Regarding Negima!, "from the brink of death" is the term used by the work's wiki.
ChaoticNovelist
09:19:12 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Why doesn't G Gundam count? It's a game whose rules state that if your head section is destroyed then you're disqualified regardless of anything else. How does that not count?
Larkmarn
10:11:52 AM Oct 3rd 2014
... how would it? It's a competition, not a game, and the trope is (assuming we're allowing non-game examples) "having your head obliterated causes death. Period." This isn't the case in G Gundam, no one dies from a decapitation and even if we took "symbolic death" in terms of being eliminated, multiple Gundams remain in the tournament after getting their heads destroyed.
ChaoticNovelist
10:20:40 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Then it is a Subverted Trope because they were supposed to be "dead" and they weren't. I remember Domon expressing shock to see them at the finals.

Larkmarn
10:38:59 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Except they're still not dead. It's a subversion of an Instant-Win Condition, but still not this trope.
ChaoticNovelist
10:47:59 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Yes, I get that they're not really dead but it's the rules of a tournament that replaced warfare. I think that merits a mention.
ChaoticNovelist
08:23:33 AM Oct 6th 2014
I added three of them back. I did not add G-Gundam back because there was not consensus for it. Is "symbolic death" acceptable?
Larkmarn
08:46:06 AM Oct 6th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
... okay, that was definitely premature.

Firstly, we didn't have any actual discussion on non-gaming examples. We should probably make a new thread for that, as I don't think there will be much of an issue with it. Secondly, Negima doesn't count for certain, and aversions are not notable, especially since that just makes it another trope.
ChaoticNovelist
10:55:20 AM Oct 6th 2014
When you don't reply for three days, I think you've lost interest, are purposely ignoring or have nothing else to say. Do I have to point your attention to your own post?

"FMA: That's meeting it more than halfway." "DBZ: It can be readded if discussion chooses to include non-gaming examples. Currently no one is really saying otherwise."
SeptimusHeap
11:06:53 AM Oct 6th 2014
I'll go ahead and say that the exclusion of non-gaming examples makes no sense.
Fighteer
11:08:22 AM Oct 6th 2014
edited by 64.64.32.4
While I don't know if there was ever a specific TRS thread about it, I can say that the trope as written is, indeed, purely a gaming trope. Having a character in cinematic or written media die when their head is blown off is Like Reality Unless Noted, and therefore not notable under this trope, nor is its aversion.

Exceptions could be made for when the trope is specifically referenced or discussed in non-gaming media, or if the media in question exists in an RPG Mechanics Verse where characters explicitly have hit points.
ChaoticNovelist
11:36:08 AM Oct 6th 2014
Fair enough.
SeptimusHeap
11:38:06 AM Oct 6th 2014
For what it's worth, I can see a situation where Death Is Cheap except for headshots and the like in non gaming media, e.g zombie stories.
Larkmarn
11:42:57 AM Oct 6th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
SeptimusHeap
12:26:04 PM Oct 6th 2014
Removing the Head or Destroying the Brain is for the undead, yes. It also specifies that it's a special case of Chunky Salsa Rule, so that will need a rewrite if this is supposed to be game specific - and a wick cleaning, I see.
Katamariguy
Topic
12:30:13 AM Jul 19th 2012
Would [1] be considered a defied trope?