I really wish I got to see that original page I've heard so much about. The way I've seen some threads describe it, it was rather interesting.
At least reading some fanboy's angry posts would have helped explain the multiple controversies to a layman; the current page has been stripped down to the point I don't even get why we have it. Hell with not having a YMMV tab, it doesn't list any tropes at all!!!
It has a short, brief list of stuff Quesada did while he was Editor In Chief of Marvel without much info or context. It doesn't name specific titles or storylines besides One More Day and House of M/Decimation. Shouldn't the JMS Spider-Man page be linked? Was it talking about Ultimatum in regards to Wasp's death? Which X-Man book had Cyclops and Emma Frost make out over Jean's grave? He likes crossover events, ok which ones did he mandate?
I still don't understand why it wasn't just moved to Darth Wiki or something if it was so negative, or why someone else couldn't just add in the positive info instead of censoring the negative. In order to actually learn something about Joe Quesada's time as Marvel's head honcho, people now have to surf through dozens of OTHER, more subjective, pages: various Spider-Man and X-Men YMMV, Discussion Threads, Headscratchers, Wallbangers, and Darth Wiki pages instead of ALL the information, the good and the bad, being on one official Creator page.
Congratulations, you didn't want one page full of complaints and creator bashing, so your prize is to now have an infectious cloud of negativity that has spread out across the wiki.
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Huh? We aren't a catalogue of complaints. And your conclusion that the complaints spread elsewhere does not follow at all.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I know we aren't a catalogue of complaints, but we do have Darth Wik and YMMV. We're a catalogue of tropes—things which the page currently lacks. I don't see what's wrong with actually listing tropes like Running the Asylum, Mary Sue, Character Derailment, and all the other negative things people say about him with a description of why that trope has been listed as long as it includes ALL the other tropes from his career as a whole, such as tropes present in his artwork. I was just making a point that the previous page sounds way more informative than the current one, as you can see by the questions I raised.
And the negativity they wanted to remove is still present, just on other pages involving One More Day and the other related topics.
Edited by jenkind1 "The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
We don't trope real people or creators. Only their works. Part of that is that tropes of someone's work are listed on the work pages, not the creator pages. Especially not negative tropes and YMMV thingies because they can give the impression the page is being used to slam the creator.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yes, we DO list tropes that Creators provide examples of. And subjective tropes ARE put on YMMV tabs for Creators.
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Maybe in the past, but nowadays such listings are being restricted. And we don't list complaints about a creator at all. End of the story.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
This wiki lists tropes. Some tropes have positive and negative connotations. Quesada has had a long career, I want his page to be informative with ALL the information. Even the current page has a negative slant. Put in stuff about Marvel Knights, talk about the creation of Punisher MAX and Ultimate Marvel, describe the tropes present in his Daredevil artwork. Put in a Crowning Moment about giving Cap's Shield to Colbert or maybe Production Posse trivia about his frequent collaborations with Kevin Smith. And yes, involve the things that pissed of X-Men and Spider-Man fans. Its not creator bashing, its listing the associated tropes and teaching the controversy.
This website is usually very informative and detailed, I went to Joe Quesada's page to actually learn something about the guy and saw a stripped down page with no listed tropes. It was then I discovered it had been 'cleaned up'. And the reason I keep seeing people say is 'we don't bash creators, we don't complain'. WE HAVE A DARTH WIKI EXPLICITY FOR THAT!!! And like I said, I don't want to just list complaints, I want it to list everything. I don't want the page to just get deleted either, we can discuss him as a Creator as rational mature people.
I can go to Stan Lee and Patrick Stewert's pages right now and see a list of tropes. I can go to Ian Mc Kellen's page right now and see a YMMV tab.
Edited by jenkind1 "The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
We are not going to list complaints. End of the story. What happens on other pages is not relevant, especially since a number of them will get their complaints removed as well.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I have repeatedly said I don't want to just list complaints and bash the guy, and that I actually have positive things to say about his work, but you don't seem to pay attention to that part.
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Take a look at the page now, if you have any problems with it tell me and I'll see how to change it. Don't be a dick and just delete it, I worked hard trying to do all that and make it an acceptable and factual page.
Edited by jenkind1 "The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Hum. Did someone propose to cut the page? I am not seeing any serious issues there, at any rate.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
It has come up in the past, and the page was apparently heavily cut down during an edit war. It is still partially locked down, for example I can't create Quotes page. I only have a couple but it is pertaining to Civil War. Can you use your magic mod powers to free it up?
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
What are the quotes, out of curiosity?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
“Some think it's a great idea and some don't. It's going to have major ramifications in the Marvel U as people take different sides in all this.”
“There has been a general consensus among us in editorial ... We feel that after 40 years of publishing our heroes have become way to chummy with each other. In earlier times, there was a certain element of danger and mistrust within the Marvel Universe, both from the human populace and its heroes. Heroes would meet and not instantly know or even like each other. Spider-Man used to get shot at, he was considered creepy, dangerous and - as J. Jonah Jameson was fond of saying - 'a masked menace!' 'Civil War' puts us back in that place. Where it leaves us? Well, you'll have to read to find out.”
We need to present both sides' arguments, both sides of the coin, as fairly and as accurately as possible, and really let the readers make their own decision. Marvel readers come in all shapes and sizes, and we speak to so many different people, different demographics. It's unfair for us to make this our bully pulpit and sit there and say, 'This bad. That good.'.
“What the fuck is DC anyway? They'd be better off calling it AOL Comics. At least people know what AOL is. I mean, they have Batman and Superman, and they don't know what to do with them. That's like being a porn star with the biggest dick and you can't get it up. What the fuck?” ―Joe Quesada
"Don't be afraid of failure. Never fear it because there's always a lesson if you're open to it. There's always a lesson at the end of it. Always."
"It always blows me away when I see people freak out because I've changed my mind on something. I'm not an elected official, folks. I didn't get my job by promising a bunch of things. I'm a businessman and a creator. If I don't have the ability to change my mind, if I don't have the ability to be open to different points of view, then I can't do this job properly."
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
You might want to offer these up here
. I have some doubts myself.
ok I'm pretty much finished with the main page now, the only left is the quotes
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
whoah wtf somebody is erasing the tropes I added
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
No, they are being hidden because they are Zero Context Examples. Do not unhide them unless you have added context, please.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
stating he and his characters are from New York for Big Applesauce doesn't have context?
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
besides, you erased the stuff you perceived as 'excessively' negative, so apparently adding context will get them removed as well
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Tropes Are Not Good and Tropes Are Not Bad, remember that before you just remove all the connotatively negative ones. I built the page back up to be fair and balanced with ALL the information, not a Sugar Wiki love letter to the guy OR a Darth Wiki list of wallbangers.
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Don't yell at Septimus Heap, the edits you are angry about were made by Mag Bas and me. The examples removed by Mag Bas were not removed just because they are negative, but because they are YMMV items and we don't list these for creators, positive or negative. And
- Big Applesauce: He's a native New Yorker, raised in Queens interestingly enough.
is not mentioning any character.
- Animesque: Quesada’s art was heavily influenced by Manga.
is just repeating the trope definition. "Adding context" means explaining in what way this influence shows in Quesada's art.
Let's just say and leave it at that.
then I apologize to him.
Most Marvel heroes are New Yorkers and Spider-Man is from Queens, which is why its interesting that Quesada is too. Big Applesauce is pretty much self explanatory: this guys from NYC
Some of his art being influenced by Manga is a general thing, I don't know what context needs to be added. I guess Ninjak?
The YMMV page is currently unavailable, and since we DO list YMMV tropes for Creators (I'm not sure why you guys keep saying we don't) I put them in the main page.
Im not going to get banned for an edit war over nitpicky bullshit like that, so I'll leave the page alone. Its better than it was before at least
Edited by jenkind1 "The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
"We don't list YMMV tropes for creators" means we are in the process of removing such pages.
For future reference, the history button at the top of a page is the place where you can check who made an edit.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ok thanks for the info
I still don't get why there's this anti-YMMV movement but I guess the wiki is always evolving
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
Can we give this guy a YMMV page so we can point out what a talentless, overpaid, unlikable, insane, idiotic, family hating hack this guy is without clogging up the main article?
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You could try Dethroning Moment of Suck or Wallbanger instead. Article is locked for a reason.
Edited by 216.99.32.44
Yeah, thanks for demonstrating precisely why this page is locked in the first place.
There's already a wallbanger for OMD, and honestly I think he has too many D Mo S to even start listing them. Anyway, I thought the idea was that the main article was mainly informal and factual, while the YMMV page was for emotional issues or opinions. As much as I hate the guy, I have no intention of stating why I hate him as fact.
Then don't write anything. This wiki is not a platform for you to whine.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
just me or is this article overwhelmingly negative? someone reading this cold would think that he's some kind of megalomaniac and that all Marvel fans are against him which seems... reactionary and not backed up by sales.
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I don't know anything about comic books, but I do understand that not many new kids are starting to read them nowadays, so if the fans hate him so much, how is it that sales are up? This whole page sounds fishy.
But like I said, I don't know anything about comic books, so I can't fix it myself.
Yes, sales are going up, but longtime fans of Marvel are being given the middle finger in the form of his insane decisions. I'm assuming that sales are going up because of the recent storm of movies sttracting the audience. Newer fans weren't thhere before Quesada's actions and thus don't see the real problem.
Sales aren't exactly up since the whole crash during the 90's but most of the stories Quesada has put his own "personal touch" on aren't doing as well as they have been. Ex: Every since the OMD disastor sales on spiderman have been lowering.
The article needs an overhaul, it's full of Mis-blamed and Internet Backdraft.
Does it count if it's felt by the majority of readers in general? Pretty much all the comic examples on there are justified, give or take.
But there SHOULD be a list of well-accepted storylines the guy's done in his career. I mean, he became successful for a reason, right? Also, the bit about him giving Colbert Cap's shield is gone. Why was that taken out? I'm all for justified negativity, but there needs to be as much positive credit given to the guy as possible, too.
Also, the Atop the Fourth Wall quote just isn't as funny as the "retcon yourself" one.
This article now has a more neutral stance on him. Whether a troper listened or simply felt compelled to do it, I do not know, but at the very least, the worst of the negativity is gone.
The man has a lot of hate, some of it very justified. That said, so does Chris Claremont, and no one denies he's a comic book icon.
So I'm for putting in some of the good things Quesada's done as well as the bad.
It definitely should be fair. It's just that Quesadilla has done some terrible things like One More Day. And Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm all for fair but Quesadilla deserves some flak. I think that the page should list stuff that he wrote like those What The-! comics.
History will judge him, and in the end, I think that he is going to be seen as a mediocre at best editor and creative director. That being said, his handling of Spider-Man was atrocious, and ran off a large number of fans. Heck, I no longer buy any comics because of the disaster that was OMD.
I mean seriously, look at what he did. And don't think for a second that it wasn't him. Heck, Straczynski came right and said that he didn't even want his name on the last issue.
So, what did Quesada have one of the flagship characters for Marvel do? Well, make a deal with the devil, or close enough to Marvel's version, to save his old aunt's life at the expense of his youngish marriage and any potential children that might have come from said marriage. Oh, and the backlash from that led him to say that it was a Faustian deal and that Peter would pay for it later. It is now almost six years later and still no repercussions.
Oh, and if that isn't enough. Then think about this. The marriage wasn't dissolved. There was no time travel to make it not happen. NO! What he did was make everyone forget that it happened. So, here is a real kicker. Just because one forgets that they are married doesn't mean that they aren't still married. Thus, he turned Peter and MJ into adulterers.
Yeah, he did a real bang up job on making one of the flagship "heroes" for Marvel send out a good message.
And why? Because he hates marriage? I tend to think this, but I don't have any proof. No, it was because marriage is boring. How does someone so devoid of any originality become a creative director?
That is why I really dislike Quesada, not as a person, but as an editor and creative director. He may have done some good things in the past, but now he has morally bankrupted one of Marvel's most well known heroes and doesn't seem to have a creative spark in his head. Heck, the only way he can keep sales up is through gimmicks like MEGA-crossovers every year and multiple releases of the same title every month. (It was no accident that right after OMD every title except Amazing was cancelled and Amazing was sold three times a month. That just meant that the sales numbers wouldn't slip as long as they didn't lose more than 2/3 of their previous readers.)
Let's not forget now, that his way of "Making up for One More Day." Was to kill Peter Parker off and let Doc Ock Take over his body. And before there was even a slight chance of bringing Parker back, they Nu52 the entire Marvel Franchise so they can Compete with DC again. I'm with Linkara on this one, Quesada while good at making money, does not know squat about what makes good drama. He just wanted to assert his power over Marvel now that Stan The Man and Avi Arad are out of the picture. Why else would he base Spidey on himself and his Love Interest on his daughter. The guy was just some minority fan that would Jump at the chance of changing the story no matter how much it pissed off the Majority.
The Marvel approach under Quesada is akin to a farmer noticing that the seeds he keeps aside for planting and sowing his crops are tastier than other seeds, then eating those seeds and thereby having nothing to plant for harvest. Things like Peter's marriage and the Conners family were among the best story seeds Spider-Man had. The marriage got figuratively devoured, and Billy got literally devoured. Now the Lizard has guilt over this, in both forms, with Conners an emotional cripple? He was always that, and always had guilt. Norman squickily seduces Harry's wife? The reaction to Sins Past didn't tell them anything? Point being, this form of storytelling is unsustainable, same as that farmer eating his planting seeds.
Sales go up during big Events where you need to purchase a bunch of comics you aren't normally interested in to know what the hell your favorite character is up to. That has nothing to do with Quesada's quality or skill as a creative director, any idiot can spam crossovers and reboots.
"The English language is like a brick wall between me and you, and 'F**K' is my chisel."
So. Am I one of the only ones who doesn't get why he thinks MJ's and Peter's marriage is boring? I mean a story is a story, it's only boring if it's written boring. Happy or Sad, you can make a interesting story. I mean MJ's and Peter's happiness gave the world Spider-Girl. Which people seem to love if I remember correctly.
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Actually, the vast, vast, vast majority of people disagreed with Quesada on it. By all accounts, he may be the only person on the planet who actually felt that way about the marriage.
I meant that people loved Spider Girl Mr Death. And they hated One More Day.
Honestly I actually want to read Spider girl.
Well, yeah. Like I said, almost everybody disagreed with Joe Quesada's insistence that the marriage was bland and boring, and Spider-Girl is a well-liked character. Hell, even Quesada likes Spider-Girl.
So...I'm not sure what you're asking, then. You're not one of the "only ones," because you're basically in the vast majority of opinion on the matter.
Respect the RedRightHand
Secondarily, might I suggest a pothole to Refuge in Audacity on 'them kissing over Jean's grave.'?
Am I the only Fantastic Four fan that says a little prayer every night that Quesada doesn't decide to make Sue and/or Reed "more interesting" by forcing some poor writer to kill one of them offl?
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Dont worry his pathological hatred of wives falters when it comes to mothers
The Lady Oracle
Am I the only one who thinks it's sick that Joe Quesada named Peter Parker's new love interest after his daughter? He seems to be crossing the creeper line into Squick territory.
Edited by QueenofSwords Hide / Show Replies
It's worse when you remember that Joe has a tendency to model Peter after himself when he does the illustrating for an issue.
Joe Quesada's physical unattractiveness aside, ew. That's even more repulsive than I initially thought.
Edited by QueenofSwords
Way late to this, but after stumbling across this page the other night I really do think it needs some kind of massive rewrite. Ir's basically a litany of fanrage, whether or not it's warranted or aimed at the proper target (the belief that an Editor in Chief literally goes over every single detail in a story and thus can be blamed for everything you dislike is pretty ridiculous!) but there's no mention of any of the positive things Quesada did in the past ten years. And then there's stuff like that wink-and-a-nod DON'T INVADE HIS TWITTER GUYS IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN that's just completely unnecessary. I'm not an editor or...heck, even registered but this just stuck out to me as a really bad page.
Edited by 97.92.231.15 Hide / Show Replies