Distiguishing between Functional Magic, Psychic Powers, and Ki Attacks

Obligatory courtesy links.

Okay, here's the sit-rep: The articles for Psychic Powers and Ki Attacks hold that, normally, there is a clear distinction between these two tropes and Functional Magic, whose article makes a passing mention of Psychic Powers being a somewhat separate concept:

• Mentalism: Power over the minds and emotions of others. Quite often involves Mind Control and abilities that mimic Psychic Powers in a magical context.

Notice that it says "mimic"; it implicitly asserts that Functional Magic can achieve similar effects to true Psychic Powers, but should not be confused with it.

However, consider this passage from Mutually Exclusive Magic:

In some settings, this [Mutually Exclusive Magic] extends to all forms of Functional Magic: Hermetic Magic, Psychic Powers, Ki-powered Supernatural Martial Arts, etcetera.

According to this, Functional Magic is simply "any abnormal ability or power that cannot be explained by simple Genetic Engineering, radiation-induced mutation, a Freak Lab Accident, Super Serum, or some other Techno Babble, and thus must have a supernatural cause/origin/source/etc.", or in short, "any ability/power that functions as magic, explicitly or implicitly without the aid of science or technology".

So which approach is the correct one?

1. Functional Magic an umbrella term for all supernatural abilites, whether "truly magical" or not.
2. Functional Magic is strictly for "true magic" such as Hermetic Magic and Vancian Magic, and to be considered separately from Psychic Powers, Ki Attacks, etc., unless Kung-Fu Wizard or Yin-Yang Bomb is in play.

edited 21st Jun '10 11:40:41 AM by MarqFJA

Mind related magics aren't necessarily the same as psychic powers, but they're both types of functional magic, so there's no contradiction.

^ Your thoughts parallel mine.

Bumping.

Bump. Am I doing something wrong?

That depends what you're trying to achieve.

My question boils down to the following: I want to know whether the trope Functional Magic is always distinguished from the tropes Ki Attacks / Supernatural Martial Arts, and Psychic Powers, or whether it is actually a Super-Trope for both true magic, Ki Attacks / Supernatural Martial Arts, and Psychic Powers.

(Re)read the OP for a detailed explanation for why I am confused.

edited 20th Jul '10 7:43:42 AM by MarqFJA

This is sadly one of those things where the only clear distinctions can be made if the media in question distinguishes. Some media say they're all separate. Sometimes they're all the same thing. Sometimes they over lap. They tend towards separate, but it's a fuzzy thing.

In general, you can only make the distinctions that the media makes.

Then shouldn't the articles make that clear? The way I see it, the description should read "Functional Magic as a trope usually includes Ki Attacks, Supernatural Martial Arts, and Psychic Powers, but this may vary by media, thus leading to Mutually Exclusive Magic."

Actually, it's normally the other way around. Functional Magic normally doesn't include Psychic Powers and Ki Attacks, but some media don't care to distinguish. Mutually Exclusive Magic is the one that should be reworded to say instead that sometimes this extends beyond what is considered magic in setting to things like Psychic Powers and Ki Attacks.

Most of the time when Mutually Exclusive Magic counts other types of powers, the justification for why you can't learn them too is because they aren't magic per se.

edited 20th Jul '10 8:11:51 AM by shimaspawn

if you take works that have all of the above (Negima and DBZ comes to mind) they certainly do separate them as different and are mostly incompatible.

edited 20th Jul '10 8:18:00 AM by Raso

Basically, the aren't Mutually Exclusive Magic because they're all the same thing, but because they aren't the same thing at all.

But the title "Functional Magic" implies that the trope that it includes all powers/phenomena that function like "magic". That's what "functional X" means: something that functions like X, even if it's not X per se.

From this perspective, I repeat what I previously stated in my OP: "Functional Magic is simply "any abnormal ability or power that cannot be explained by simple Genetic Engineering, radiation-induced mutation, a Freak Lab Accident, Super Serum, or some other Techno Babble, and thus must have a supernatural cause/origin/source/etc.", or in short, "any ability/power that functions as magic, explicitly or implicitly without the aid of science or technology".

So which approach is the correct one?

1. Functional Magic an umbrella term for all supernatural abilites, whether "truly magical" or not.
2. Functional Magic is strictly for "true magic" such as Hermetic Magic and Vancian Magic, and to be considered separately from Psychic Powers, Ki Attacks, etc., unless Kung-Fu Wizard or Yin-Yang Bomb is in play.

Note that for the tropes covering the different schools "true magic", we could group them together under a Super-Trope that is named appropiately. "Functional Magic" is simply not appropiate.

edited 20th Jul '10 3:42:44 PM by MarqFJA

I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly what the core of the Functional Magic trope is actually supposed to be. It appears to be "Magic has rules," since it goes on to enumerate some of the common rule-systems. However, I'm not certain what distinguishes it from Magic A Is Magic A. As for things that are functionally equivalent to magic, that's Magic by Any Other Name.

edited 20th Jul '10 2:08:52 PM by chubbyboy

Despite its name, Magic A Is Magic A is not a magic-specific trope; it's rather about a story adhering to its own internal logic.

And it seems I was mistaken in using 'powers/phenomena that function like "magic"' as a "concise" description. When I say "magic" (quotation marks mandatory), I mean it in the sense of "something that has no 'natural' explanation, and thus must be of supernatural origin". It's similar to how ignorant people may confuse sufficiently advanced technology for magic, only you replace the technology with Ki Attacks / Supernatural Martial Arts, and/or Psychic Powers. I.e. The effects of Hermetic Magic / Wild Magic on one hand and Ki Attacks / Supernatural Martial Arts / Psychic Powers on the other hand can be the same, but the origin is not. They're all "magic" in the eyes of the "uninitiated".

The second, more detailed one in my previous post (and the OP) gives a better impression of what I mean. Either way, Magic by Any Other Name is not the answer. And yes, I've to this decision after I've read the trope description; Magic by Any Other Name is basically true magic that is known by a different name, and is often also misconcieved to be of "non-magical" nature.

edited 20th Jul '10 3:55:31 PM by MarqFJA

I think Functional Magic is supposed to be magic that's functional as opposed to wild magic or just random powers. It is specifically, magic that has a system to it.

Psychic Powers and Ki Attacks don't count because in most settings, they just aren't magic. Therefore, they don't follow the magic tropes. And, most of the time they don't have a heavily ritualised system which is what Functional Magic is about.

edited 20th Jul '10 11:18:46 PM by shimaspawn

You're missing my point: From a the POV of a layman who has never heard nor experienced magic / Ki Attacks / Psychic Powers, at first glance he would consider all of them as "magic" in the same way as he would do to sufficiently advanced technology.

And "ritualized magic"/"magic with a system" is Hermetic Magic.

edited 3rd Aug '10 8:51:40 PM by MarqFJA

No, it's not. Hermetic Magic is a subtrope of functional magic. It's a specific type of ritual magic that is always used the same way with the same symbolism.

Oh right; my mistake. I confused Hermetic Magic for the "Rule Magic" subtype of Functional Magic. My other points still stand, though.

The point of view of the layman seeing them isn't the point. The point is the tropes that they follow. They don't work the same way and that means that they don't follow the same tropes.

"Follow the same tropes"? When did I ever say that? All I'm doing is drawing parallels between an existing trope and an Exactly What It Says on the Tin interpretation of another trope's name.

In anycase, I don't understand how "they don't work the same way" is a valid counter-point; by that logic, Magic from Technology is invalidated since not every form of technology works the same way (e.g. "nuclear reactors" versus "warp drives").

edited 9th Aug '10 5:32:25 PM by MarqFJA

I clarified the description. The trope is "magic that works." Full stop.

Okay... I suppose no one would object to me YKTTWing my proposed concept for "a Super-Trope that encompasses Functional Magic, Ki Attacks, Supernatural Martial Arts and Psychic Powers", then?

edited 9th Aug '10 5:42:16 PM by MarqFJA

How would it be different from an expanded description on Magic and Powers?

Because Magic and Powers is only an index about "superpower" tropes, and from a quick scan around half of them are generic - as in, they can apply to any superpower, whether (super-)scientific/technological or supernatural. My proposal, on the other hand, is a Super-Trope for supernatural "superpower" tropes that can all be easily confused for magic at first glance, and explicitly do not have the benefit of a Techno Babble explanation to justify them.

An exception may be made for the harder Sci-Fi versions of Psychic Powers, which AFAIK is not that common. They usually seem to portrayed as either the result of having "an unusually strong/developed mind/spirit", or as a specialized school of Mind Manipulation magic; both kinds are quite different in innate mechanics, even though the effects are often virtually the same.

edited 9th Aug '10 6:13:51 PM by MarqFJA

I'm still not getting it, I guess. 'Supernatural' and 'magical' are different in your mind?

Does everything on Stock Superpowers fit into this category you are thinking of?