TV Tropes Trading Card Game

Indeed, the thinnest cardstock most paper shops sell is 8 point, which comes out to about 0.2 mm.

online since 1993 | huge retrocomputing and TV nerd | lee4hmz.info (under construction) | heapershangout.com

I have to say that I'm imagining games being played on a floor.

One of my old gaming hangouts didn't have that luxury. The table was made of rough stone (scratches card backs without sleeves). The floor was dirt and grass (um... yeah). I played my games of Magic on top of a laminated periodic table of the elements, about as large as a lunch tray. Sort of appropriate for my old Dimir deck with the Transmute mechanic on some of the cards.

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...

We could just make "In the story" and "On A Bus" as two distinct zones, with "Dead" as a status effect (since a character being dead can still have a strong effect on the story. If a character is dead and on a bus, the character could still be bought back, in which case it'd be back in the story...but still dead. That would give us two game zones, a draw pile, a discard pile, and a "removed from game" zone (to be used very rarely).

I think that buying a character back from "on a bus" should be a flat cost per character instead of having to pay for each trope. For one, it doesn't make much flavor sense that way (It requires more influence to bring back a well-developed character than it does to bring back a flat one? It requires less influence to bring back a character and ignore most of the Character Development than it does to bring back the character as we left it before?). Also, it strongly discourages people from stacking tropes on a single character

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Innately buying back a character from Put on a Bus isn't a very good idea. While it is true that the zone is for characters who could come back, if you allow that kind of come back then characters cease to actually leave at all. Unless the penalty for bringing these characters back is EXTREMELY severe, players will gladly pay it to get all those cards back. If you want to bring those characters back, have a Trope Card or some other card's ability do it. And they will do it frequently for the Put on a Bus zone.

Removed from play constitutes yet another graveyard zone and thus shall not be done.

Putting a character on the bottom effectively destroys that character. Remember that character cards cannot actually enter a deck. What actually happens is the physical character card returns to the set aside pile and all the Characterizations land on the bottom. Furthermore, the odds of you reaching the bottom of your deck in a game are slim to none unless we have some other kind of serious design flaw. Those cards will not be seen again barring a tutor, which will find only one of them.

You are entirely wrong once again, VB, and telling me not to say so doesn't change that fact. The character will never come back once all their tropes are put in the deck. We can't track a character in a deck, so those cards are now split up, unique to themselves again. The character is gone. This is neither a flavor nor a mechanical problem.

If you read more carefully, you see that there are graveyard zones for characters. It's pretty easy to move a character and all cards attached to another zone and let them sit there. If another character ends up there, place them next to each other in that zone and leave them sit.

And please refrain from calling out my reasons for being weak, as you haven't done your research, sir. Examples:

• you claim sending cards to the bottom is bad, as the character will return. Simple fact is that no, they will not. It is impossible for that to happen.
  • You even claim that shuffling would cause this to happen. it specifically would guarantee further that the same character would not return.
  • tutoring is the same way. You'll find one of the characterizations. Not all of them.
• Deader than Dead putting a character on the bottom, as explained above, ensure that said character is gone. For good.
• My problems with complexity: zones are bad. The more play zones in a game, the harder it is to use any of those zones and the harder it is to track them. Each zone needs play space and cards that use it.
  • but since you lack the facilities to understand complexity creep within game mechanics, I'll approach this from a different perspective.
    • You're creating an entire zone for ONE CARD that may not even be included. That's useless beyond belief.
    • The desired effect of said card is achieved equally well by an already existing suggested mechanic of send to bottom. Stop and think about how a card game is played before trying to respond to this again.
    • from the flavor side: differences between dead and Deader than Dead are genre dependent. In some genres there is no such thing as Deader than Dead.
• Now I've tried to dodge bringing this up as much as possible, as I want to encourage everyone to debate how the game works and make suggestions, but please don't call my reasons weak until you understand why I am saying them. I'll repeat that I study game mechanics at RPI with the intent of pursuing a career in it. I've taken multiple classes dedicated to games and how they function, and especially how to design for the players. I put the players above all else when making design decisions and suggestions, followed by the mechanical soundness of the game. A huge portion of mechanical soundness is simplicity. I've used the example of Go before. A game with very simple mechanics that has infinite possibility for play and exploration. Corner cases in rules are bad. The "Afterlife" zone is a corner case that you are building to handle the result of one card.

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

I'm double-posting to go more in depth with the bringing back bussed characters question, as it seems to have come up a lot.

I'm not a fan of the idea, to say the least. It a penalty of IP, even given to the opponent, is not likely to offset the gain of getting cards back from a discard zone. Even skipping a draw is iffy, as there's likely to be multiple cards being brought back by the action. Card advantage is the defining mechanic of card games, after all, so we need to be aware of the fact that a character could have six or seven cards stuck on them which would all return at the same time for whatever the cost of this action is. Thus the cost needs to accurately comparing to getting six cards back, even if sometimes it will only get one or two.

I would rather see this worked into card mechanics. Certain 'meeting place' themed Plot Device - Setting cards would let you bring characters back. As they are cards that need to be drawn and played, the penalty for the action can be less severe. I also think this is pleasing from a flavor perspective, as the characters in the story will suddenly find this character who was Put on a Bus at the location.

If you guys really want this mechanic, though, I'll suggest that the penalty be quite heavy. No skipping draw step or loss of influence, but discard a card for each Characterization brought back. This will level the card advantage problem and allow the character to return.

Also, thematically Put on a Bus character should be able to return, but a mechanic like this really makes the zone feel much closer to Not Important To This Episode Camp. Too much resurrection might not be healthy for the game.

edited 28th Jun '09 9:55:06 AM by Apocalypsering

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

I don't particularly mind how they can come back so long as:

• It is no harder to bring back a character with 5 tropes than it is to bring back a character with one (flavorful reasons related to a specific trope are exempt from this, of course)
• Player don't have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it work. This can be as simple as having a few tropes that allow you to do so, but having the minimal requirement be a four-card combo is a bit much.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

In general, one card that specifies a small additional payment will likely be the means of getting them back. I'd much prefer this method as it expends a reasonably equivalent amount of resources. It takes up the play one card per turn and it expends the card used to get the character back. An additional penalty of a discard or loss of IP might be tacked on depending on how it balances out during playtesting.

Which brings me to my next point. We should start coming up with some cards. I'll make an Excel sheet to use as a database, but I want to see what you guys envision for the cards before I make any suggestions, so for now I'll just throw up the templates.

Also, stats for the characterizations never were nailed down. I'd suggest either four or five, and offer up INTELLIGENCE, CHARISMA, COMBAT, LUCK, LOVE, WILL. Make some more offerings and we'll narrow it down to about five. That stats are heavily flavor driven, of course, so be creative. Same goes for plot devices and story arcs subtypes. Feel free to make them up if you think they'll work and submit a card with them. Also remember to give cards activated abilities, and most should have a once or per turn restriction. As always, consider balance and especially card advantage when making abilities.

Writer Cards:

• CARD NAME
  • STARTING SP (arbitrary until playtesting is conducted, but estimate between 50 and 70)
  • BONUS EFFECT

Trope Cards: (remember that these are the fast, powerful cards that can be played in response to things.)

• CARD NAME
  • Restrictions on what the Trope can be played on.
  • Effects of the Trope.

Characterizations:

• CARD NAME
  • SP cost to keep in play
  • Restrictions on what the card can be attached to.
  • stats granted by the card (none, any, or all of the stats)
  • abilities granted by the card (not required)

Plot Devices:

• CARD NAME
  • SP cost to keep in play
  • CARD SUBTYPE (object, time period, location, social norm)
  • card's abilities and effects.

Story Arcs:

• CARD NAME
  • SP cost to keep in play
  • CARD SUBTYPE (Ending, Rising Action, Climax, Exposition)
  • conditions to be met to complete the Story Arc
  • reward for completing the Story Arc.

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

• Tsundere
  • 4 SP
  • Female
  • COMBAT 3, LOVE 3 (Arbitrary numbers for now)
  • The character this card is attatched to may use COMBAT on a Love Interest as well as LOVE. (Hmm, Love Interest should probably be a common card.)

Perhaps "Love Interest" should be a characteristic that is granted to characters by the tropes on the Love Interests list (including Tsundere).

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Apoc, let me see if I have this straight: The equivalent of a Character being removed from play is that all its Characterisation cards are shuffled back into the player's deck. The Character is then placed at the bottom of the player's Character pile, becoming a new blank slate. Thus, if it is drawn again, it is as a new blank slate; in flavour terms, it's a new character, and the old one doesn't come back.

Is that right? Because if it is, then yeah, it works just fine for me.

Also, I have a suggestion for discard consolidation. Have a single discard pile, in which Character can be placed either face-up or face-down. Face-up Characters are treated as being Put on a Bus, and face-down character are treated as being Killed Off for Real. It would be easier to bring a face-up Character back than a face-down Character.

Oh, and having certain cards with the ability to bring characters back from the Bus makes sense to me.

---

I should probably design a card. Random Item turns up Cartoon Creature.

CARTOON CREATURE

• SP Cost: 3 [arbitrary until we get a better idea of decent SP scores]
• AGE: Child
• STATS: +3 Charisma, +2 Love, -1 Combat, +1 Idealism, -1 Cynicism
• EFFECTS: A Character with Anti-Villain and Idealism of 0 or higher cannot cause the removal of this Character.
• FLAVOUR: No! What ARE you kidses? Look at you! With those ears and those tails... That's not normal! I mean what ARE you?

Ukrainian Red Cross

Can I give this a shot? Random item turns up Instant Waking Skills.

• INSTANT WAKING SKILLS
  • Trope
  • May affect any sleeping character card
  • You may choose any character cards which are currently asleep and awaken them.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

Alright, time for a Plot Device!

• Cool Tank
  ^{Yes, I know that Cool Tank redirects to Tank Goodness, but Cool Tank sounds more like a plot device. I would call the card Main Battle Tank, but I'm assuming all non-writer cards have to be things that we have as tropes.}
   ^*
  • SP Cost: 4 (Arbitrary. In fact, assume all numbers on this card are arbitrary.)
  • Subtypes: Vehicle, Military
  • Abilities:
    • Attach to a Character Card: Only characters with a COMBAT stat of 5 or more can use COMBAT on the attached character. The attached character's COMBAT stat becomes equal to the attached character's DRIVE stat.
    • Remove: Search your deck for Stuff Blowing Up, play it, and then shuffle your deck.

edited 28th Jun '09 3:43:51 PM by Eriksson

@VB: I think we should probably combine Idealism and Cynicism, no point in having two scores for those.

I'll make Tsundere as soon as possible because I don't have to alter the template I have already to do it.

And so far the good stats (I'd say) are Combat, Love, and Idealism. Should probably cap it at six or seven so they're all useful.

EDIT: Here's Tsundere.◊ Though I ought to change the way that text is aligned. One sec.

EDIT 2: Tsundere v2◊.

edited 28th Jun '09 6:10:04 PM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Yeah, stat and SP averages are something I forgot. For now rate stats between 1 and 10 and keep SP cost between 3 and 10.

Having a sub-type called "Love Interest" is a decent idea, and other such subtypes can be added for the trope categories. The female part needs to be in the text box, though. Remember that the character cards set aside have specified genders. The text box should contain the line "Play only on a Female character."

Next comment, naming specific cards is something I think every TCG has done at some point, but it's a pet peeve of mine. I'll admit that it's just something that annoys me and it's really totally fine, I just don't like it. Probably because Yu Gi Oh loved to do it and it only added to the pre-built decks problem that game had. If you do name another card, please make that card, too.

Also, remember that a huge part of this game is IP. An easy ability to attach to Characterizations that would otherwise just be stats is to steal an IP or two each turn.

Vampire Buddah, yes you got that right. As for the merger and face-down thing, it might work too. If playtesting is presenting problems with too many zones we could definitely go to that.

Also, Characterizations aren't intended to raise or lower, but actually grant stats. So no negative numbers. Any stat not granted by the Characterization is treated as 0. (at least as we have it currently) This also brings up two Characterizations trying to set the same stat. For now the easy answer is to just go with the highest number available.

While I'm here, what the hell:

• Trope-tan
  • Writer
  • SP 70
  • Once per turn during your Action Phase, you may discard a card from your hand and then draw a card.

edited 28th Jun '09 6:17:56 PM by Apocalypsering

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

If we can't come up with a decent ability for a particular Characterization Trope, I don't think that we should just throw a generic IP ability on it and call it a card with a decent design. If we ever have a trope grant IP just for being in play, there should be a good flavorful reason for it instead of well, nothing else came to mind, so...

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

I definitely agree with Ironeye on that.

The flavor part of me also agrees. The mechanical side, however, not so much. There has to be some way to transfer IP, otherwise its a useless concept, so some kind of card needs to make this happen.

Remember that it's not as much of a flavor problem as you might think. Just having a character that you made in a collaborative work would give you influence over the story. It is your character, so you get to do whatever you want to it, while other people might be restrained in how much they can control your character. That can be represented by a small IP transfer action.

Also, remember that the characters don't know that IP exists. Any abilities interacting with IP are outside of the story being told and thus not a huge flavor issue. While I agree that it is bad to just slap mechanics on a card just to have them, it is a game function that we need to think about.

• Determinator (Characterization)
  • SP cost 7
  • Play on any character.
  • Will 10, Luck 6
  • Once per turn during your action phase, you may steal 1 IP from one opponent.

• Everytown, America
  • SP cost 6
  • Plot Device - Setting
  • Whenever you play a Trope, you may steal 1 IP from one opponent.

• Not Important To This Episode Camp
  • SP cost 8
  • Plot Device - Setting
  • Once per turn during your action phase, you may put one character on a bus. If you do, return another character Put on a Bus by this effect to the story. When this card leaves the story, return to the story all characters Put on a Bus by this effect.

While I'm at it, I'll add a comment on the Cool Tank card. First, it would fall into the "object" subtype of plot devices as set up right now. Also, I think DRIVE is a stat that won't have much application, and as we want to keep only about five stats I don't think DRIVE will make the cut. We also lack an attachment system for plot devices right now. If I may do some formatting changes while trying my best to keep the spirit of the card:

• Characters with COMBAT lower than 5 cannot use abilities on characters you control.
• During your action phase, you may discard Cool Tank from the story to send another Object or Location to the discard pile.

edited 29th Jun '09 7:22:56 AM by Apocalypsering

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

• Happily Ever After
  • Story Arc - Ending
  • 12 SP
  • When it is your draw step, if there are at least two characters with a LOVE stat of 9 or more and you have 45 IP, you win the game.

• The End of the World as We Know It
  • Story Arc - Ending
  • 10 SP
  • When it is your draw step, if there are at least four Location cards and at least four Social Norm cards in any discard piles and you have 45 IP, you win the game.

• Xanatos Gambit
  • Story Arc - Rising Action
  • 8 SP
  • When any player controls three more characters in the story than any of their opponents, that player's opponents may each draw two cards.

• Kid Hero
  • Characterization - Hero
  • 6 SP
  • COMBAT 5, LUCK 5, WILL 3
  • Whenever you play a characterization, you may steal one one IP from one opponent.

• Xanatos Roulette
  • Trope
  • Each player may return a Story Arc card in their discard pile to play. Players cannot return a card if it would exceed their remaining SP.

As demonstrated above, I think it might be possible to give Characterizations a subtype based on the index that they are found in. Tsundere ends up being a Love Interest. Determinator and Kid Hero are both found under Hero.

edited 29th Jun '09 11:28:34 AM by Apocalypsering

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

@Apoc: That's a good flavor justification for putting IP drain on everything, not just tropes without other abilities.

edited 29th Jun '09 11:27:34 AM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

That is entirely true, so make your decisions based on what you feel like doing. If I need to, I'll play the devil's advocate and stick IP draining abilities onto cards that I created.

edited 29th Jun '09 11:32:15 AM by Apocalypsering

"Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Of course not. Seasons aren't alive. You are, though . . ." -Reaper King

All the cards Apoc just made.

(And please people, make up your mind about whether stats should be in all caps or not.)

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Dude it's telling me I need a password to see it.

Apoc, you mentioned that Characterisation cards grant stats, but do not raise or lower them. What happens when two Characterisations affect the same stat? For example, consider a Character who is both The Chessmaster and a Manipulative Bastard.

THE CHESSMASTER

• Characterisation
• Cost: 6 SP
• Intelligence 7
• Effect 1: Gain 1 SP per turn
• Effect 2: During each turn, select and activate one of the following effects:
  • Gain 2 SP
  • Draw an extra card
  • Look at one of your opponent's cards.
• Flavour: People are so predictable. Just like pieces on a chessboard...

MANIPULATIVE BASTARD

• Characterisation - Villain
• Cost: 5 SP
• Intelligence: 6
• Effect 1: Gain 1 IP per turn.
• Effect 2: Spend 2 SP to cancel a relationship between two other characters.

If a Character was both of these, I think the stats should accumulate, giving this character an Intelligence stat of 13.

---

Also, if Idealism is going to be a stat (which it should probably be), then instead of running from 1 to 10, I think it might make more sense for it to range from -5 to +5. -5 would be extremely cynical (Warhammer 40 K), +5 would be extremely idealistic (like Care Bears) and 0 would be average (Planetes up to about ep 20). This isn't hugely difference for a 1-10 range, but since cynicism is essentially the opposite of idealism, it makes more sense for it to be equated with negative, as opposed to extremely low, idealism.

With that in mind, here's some cards that play off it:

CRAPSACK WORLD

• Setting - Cynical
• Cost: 4 SP
• As long as this card is in play, Characters with Idealism of 0 or higher cannot take any action. This card cannot be played if a Setting card with the keyword Idealistic is already in play.

SUGAR BOWL

• Setting - Idealistic
• Cost: 4 SP
• As long as this card is in play, Characters with Idealism of 0 or lower cannot take any action. This card cannot be played if a Setting card with the keyword Cynical is already in play.

Wide-Eyed Idealist

• Characterisation - Hero
• Cost: 3 SP
• Idealism: +3
• Each turn, select and activate one of the following effects:
  • Gain 1 IP.
  • Increase the Idealism stat of one character by 1. This effect can only be used on each other character once.

---

Also, just for fun, here's a few death/removal cards.

ANYONE CAN DIE

• Setting - Cynical
• Cost: 2 SP
• Effect: When a Character is sent to the Bus, either player can pay 2 SP to have them sent to the Graveyard instead. The player who uses this effect gains 1 IP.

Put on a Bus

• Death
  ^{I'm only classifying this as a death trope because it's about removal of cards.}
   ^*
• Cost: 3 SP
• Send one Character to the Bus.

Killed Off for Real

• Death
• Cost: 4 SP
• Send one Character to the Graveyard.

Dropped a Bridge on Him

• Death
• Cost: 6 SP
• Remove all Characterisations from a Character and shuffle them back into your deck. Then place that Character card on the bottom of your Character pile.

Deader than Dead

• Death
• Cost: 5 SP
• Select a Character in the Graveyard and place it on the bottom of your Character deck. Then shuffle any Characterisations that were attached to it back into your main deck.

MCLEANED

• Death
• Cost: 2 SP
• Activate when a Character would be sent to the Bus. That Character is sent to the Graveyard instead.

BUS CRASH

• Death
• Cost: 1 SP
• Select a Character in the Bus. Transfer to the Graveyard.

Ukrainian Red Cross

Apoc already said before that when two or more characterisations have a common stat of differing number, go with the highest one.