During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A total has-been.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Edward, Party Crasher Cray-Cray 
@Sea Rover: Sorry, but I'm still not convinced Kagari counts. Even if Kagari didn't care about who Tsubaki was as a person and Tsubaki wouldn't have wanted Kagari to do what she did, Kagari still missed her. She was still dealing with the grief of losing a crucial part of her life in her own warped way. It might not be redeeming, but it's mitigating. If anything, I'm getting the sense that Kagari is more like a Tai Lung type of villain - throws away her semi-redeeming factor in the end, but still doesn't cut it as a Complete Monster due to either having a damn good Freudian Excuse or not going all out in being as heinous as she could have been. So, Kagari's still getting a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
from me.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ooh, there's another one besides Wynn, Cochran, and Myers himself?
I'm not talking about the franchise, mate. I was supposed to have a third seasonal Monster for October after my Karloff candidates. Retired for the night because I didn't immediately feel like proposing him at the moment and he sort of fell to the side. Regardless, if now's an opportune time? Expect him up tonight or tomorrow.
Although to be fair... it wouldn't surprise me if Halloween had a few more undiscovered characters in the comics or the books.
edited 11th Jan '17 9:00:49 AM by Scraggle
to Partycrasherman.
Here's Stroller's entry.
- Red Faction: Origins: Stroller is the leader of the White Faction, made from the remnants of the EDF. When the White Faction faces population collapse due to an influenza, Stroller sought to repopulate the ranks by abducting children and raising them to be soldiers. Stroller makes a specific target out of Alec Mason's children, personally killing their mother Samanya and taking Lyra while Jake barely escapes. Stroller places himself as a father figure to Lyra, making her believe her family is dead and he saved her. In the present, Stroller is responsible for escalating tensions between the colonists and marauders, killing people on both sides and framing the other party. To orchestrate a war, Stroller launches attack on Eos to massacre civilians before turning their attention to attack the marauders. When Stroller sees Jake aboard his ship, coincidently at the time Lyra realizes the truth, Stroller attempts to kill her personally, denouncing her as a traitor.
So with another Red Faction villain on my mind, I'd like to bring up Adam Hale, who functions as The Dragon to Stroller in Red Faction: Origins and the Big Bad of the fourth game Armageddon.
Who is he ? What does he do ?
Adam Hale, as presented in the games, is the leader of cultists placing himself as a messiah on a quest to conquer Mars. In the film, we see he was once a young but high ranking member of the White Faction, in which Stroller was his mentor. He was also a friend and lover to Lyra Mason.
In chronological order, Adam is introduced when Jake Mason and his companion Tess are captured within the White Faction's ship. When Lyra learns Jake is her brother, she questions Stroller about it. Adam asks Stroller if he was telling the truth to her, and Stroller reveals the real reason why he captured her. He also tells Adam that Alec Mason killed his father. Adam spends the night with Lyra hiding the truth from her.
Later, Hale is there when Stroller launches his attack on Eos, overseeing the attack with Stroller. When asked how many where killed in the attack, Adam responds with "As many as it takes." When Stroller thinks Lyra betrayed them, his attempt to kill her backfires with his own death, Lyra attempts to escape with Jake and his allies. Adam confronts them, taking them at gunpoint. Adam tries to talk Lyra into joining him so they can build a new Mars together. Lyra leaves with her brother, to Adam's anger, and with Stroller's death, all control of the White Faction falls to Adam.
Taking command, Adam orders the White Faction dreadnought to halt its attack, and turn their attention to the Teraformer which is the one think keeping Mars atmosphere stable. Adam clearly knows this, as he states it will render Mars virtually uninhabitable and rip the atmosphere apart. When his lieutenant hesitates, Adam holds him at gunpoint to make him carry out the attack. The attack fails when Alec Mason pulls a Heroic Sacrifice and destroys the Dreadnought. Adam somehow survived the explosion and goes into hiding.
At the time of the fourth game, Adam has lead a group of cultists created from an offshoot of marauders, self proclaiming himself as a messiah, and continued his plan to destroy the Teraformer. He has become public enemy number one. The game opens with a Red Faction team, including Jake's son Darius, fighting off a cultist attack on the Teraformer. Most of the Red Faction soldiers are killed, save for Darius and his superior officer Frank Winters. Hale imitates a wounded soldier to send Darius on a wild goose chase, before personally blowing up the Teraformer with a bomb. Darius and Winters manage to escape, and Hale is believed to have been killed in the explosion. As a result, the surface of Mars becomes uninhabitable as tornadoes and lightning storms consume the planet. To survive, the people of Mars are forced to flee underground and set up colonies to start anew.
Five years later, Adam discovers ravenous alien creatures called the Plague, that was buried further beneath the surface and comes up with a plan to bring about armageddon using these creatures. Darius works as a freelance miner, and is approached by Adam's cultists posing as archeologists to help open a seal where the creatures are hidden. After Adam and his cultists reveal themselves, they have Darius dropped from a cliff and left to his fate, with Adam mockingly thanking Darius for his help. Darius wakes three days later and makes his way out of the mines to discover the plague has been killing multiple colonists, overwhelming the towns and some are blaming him for their release.
Darius is briefly arrested by the Red Faction but he eventually convinces them of Hale's involvement. Darius and his friend Kara discover the cultists hideout in the Ultor Ruins. They see Adam trying to tame one of the creatures with others chained up. Adam gives his speech on how he intends to enslave these creatures and use them to wipe out their enemies. Darius ends up blowing his over and the creatures start attack the cultists, Darius and Adam try to shoot eachother before Darius makes an escape in a mining cart, with Adam in pursuit with a Marauder Walker. Darius holds Adam off by shooting junction boxes at the walkers legs and causing it more damage when it crashes through the mining gates. Darius destroys the power stations which collapse on and destroy the walker. The walkers head falls off, taking Adam's own head with him.
Despite Adam's death, the plague are still a threat and the second half focuses on Darius and his allies fighting the plague before they can overrun Mars and trying to destroy the queen of their hive. It's discovered the plague can die from pure air and the battle takes to the damaged Teraformer, which Darius manages to repair, wiping out the plague in the process. The game ends with the surface of Mars becoming habitable once again, with Darius' AI warning of high concentration of radiation on the surface, to which Darius replies "Easy there genius. That's the sun."
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
In the movie he does have a genuinely close friendship and romantic relationship with Lyra Mason, having been raised with her in the White Faction. Its also implied that he has been manipulated by Stroller in during his time in the White Faction, being told that his father was killed by Alec Mason, with the implication that Adam didn't even know his father. On top of that Adam had developed a hatred for both colonist and marauder alike, fully supporting the mass murder against them. Pretty much he grew up being groomed to be loyal to the White Faction cause.
Regardless when Lyra has a Heel–Face Turn and prepares to leave with her brother, she tries to talk Adam into joining her. Adam says nothing will stand in the way of his destiny and isn't really fazed when Lyra tells him that Stroller was manipulating then and their lives where lies, Adam says it doesn't matter because what he had with Lyra wasn't a lie (except the part where he keeps the truth of her past from her). Adam says his main concern is him and Lyra starting a new Mars together. He gets angry and a little distressed when she goes with her brother.
How does he further respond to Lyra's departure ? With a Villainous Breakdown. Moments later he takes full control of the White Faction, at which point he halts the White Factions initial plans and focuses them on the Teraformer, and which he makes clear he know will destabilize the atmosphere and environment of Mars and render the surface uninhabitable. Something that no doubt could kill Lyra and countless people, not that he cares. He even holds his lieutenant at gunpoint to carry out the order despite it being against the White Factions pragmatic interests.
Now one could make the argument that at he time he wasn't thinking clearly and at the time he does look distressed about destroying the Teraformer like he was in way over his head. What I got from it was that he was more concerned about his lover ditching him and if he can't rebuild a new Mars without her, then fuck the whole thing all together.
The game Armageddon starts twenty years after the movie, and we see he still intends to destroy the Teraformer and rather than being part of the White Faction which either has long since been disbanded or destroyed, Adam now leads a cult his name and developed a Dark Messiah complex. He success in his plan to destroy the Teraformer, bringing widespread destruction across Mars and forcing its people to flee underground to survive. He also sets loose and plans to enslave ravenous alien creatures to kill more people and bring about an Armageddon for his conquest of Mars.
In the game as far as his previous love for Lyra goes, I'd say he shed that away seeing as he doesn't talk about her at the time of the game, nor does he appear to think about them. He does speak a whole lot of hatred for the Mason family however, seeming to make Darius Mason a personal target for his plans.
Heinous Standard
Compared to Axel Capek, Lucious Kobel and Stroller, I'd say he's pretty bad. He is responsible for nearly bringing an apocalypse to Mars and has countless people already. Unlike Lucious Kobel who plans to wipe out Mars population before being stopped, Adam Hale comes the close to succeeding, having caused widespread destruction on Mars and plans on further killing its people in the name of his conquest.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Caesar
'Yes' to Hale for now.
For me, next film candidate. This one is....weird, I'm not gonna lie, and I have no idea what the thread will think, but let's do it.
Who is he?
The killer is the main antagonist of Split Second.
What has he done?
A Serial Killer whose M.O. is to jump his victims, rip out their hearts, then flee the scene, the killer has amassed a quite high bodycount over his years of activity, though the exact number is never stated.
Always striking on the night of the new moon each month, 3 years ago the killer was pursued into the sewers by cop Harley Stone and his partner Foster. While down there, the killer murdered Foster, slashed Stone with a blade then fled.
Years later, the killer continues his spree by jumping a woman in a public restroom, ripping out her heart, then writing "I'm back" on the bathroom mirror with her blood.
The killer then sends Stone a package at work. Said package's contents are the woman's heart with a big chunk bitten out of it, and thus, it's revealed that the killer eats the hearts after removing them from his victims.
Later, the killer rips out another man's heart, then leaves Foster's gun, which was never found, at the scene solely to taunt Stone. The killer then wrote satanic symbols all over the room in his victim's blood.
After breaking into Stone's apartment with a woman in tow, the killer rips out her heart, leaves said heart in Stone's refrigerator, then rubs her blood all over the walls of Stone's apartment and said refrigerator. He then shoots down Stone's new partner, Dick, with a pistol before fleeing the scene.
The killer then breaks into the police station where the woman's heart is being kept to steal and eat it, though he is intercepted by Stone and a recovered-Dick (That sentence sounds really weird....).
Afterwards, Dick is jumped by the killer, has a satanic symbol carved into his chest, then is left for Stone to find, because it turns out that the symbol actually doubles as a map that will show them where the killer is located.
The killer is revealed to have kidnapped Stone's girlfriend, and is using her as bait to lure him to his lair, also the same area he murdered Foster.
Stone and Dick, after having spent the entire film trying to decipher who the killer is and what he wants, discover the obvious truth.
The killer is a demonic space rat from Hell.
.....WHAT?! (You may be thinking).
Yep, the killer is actually a nightmarish Xenomorph looking thing that eats his victims hearts so as to devour their souls, which he then drags into Hell at the end of each of his sprees. Dick and Stone surmise that this thing is Satan himself.
The killer attacks and tries to kill Dick, Stone, and his girlfriend, however, through gatling guns, grenades, and electrical shocks, they manage to.....tickle him.
Stone then gets tired of this crap, punches a hole through the killer Satan thing, then rips his heart out and blows it to smithereens. And then they live happily ever after. Woo-hoo, yay....
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Erm.....no.
Other mitigating factors?
First up, he doesn't talk, but this isn't a problem as he leaves taunting messages, mails half-eaten hearts to Stone and leaves his dead partner's gun at a crime scene just to taunt him, and is obviously enjoying what he does.
The....issue here is what the CRAP he is is never specified beyond "Weird Hell rat demon that eats victims' hearts to drag them to Hell and may or may not be Satan. Possibly."
Why does he kill on new moons? Something something satanism, something something Scorpio atstrological signs.
How the HECK does he know how to handle a pistol? The world may never know.
So....no idea how we handle something like this. We ever upvoted a candidate whom we have no idea WHAT they are or where they come from?
His motive is to eat victims' hearts to drag their souls to Hell/screw with Stone as much as possible For the Evulz.
His personality is sadistic, taunting, and meticulous.
His....character/origins? Who the heck knows.
Final Verdict?
Not a clue. Though I'm leaning somewhat 'Yes'.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I'll go with yea to demonic hell thing. And Hale.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hale I think. rat killer thingy.
I'm... skeptical on evil Satan space rat (and never again will those words pass my lips in that sequence). I mean yes, a personality is one thing, but I can't lie if this thing doesn't appear to be more a creature than an entity capable of agency especially given as we have no goddamned idea what it is in the first place.
A sadistic personality is one thing, but I'm... way too wary on this thing's lack of an origin or any motive outside of just "eating people's hearts for shits and giggles" so count me as an abstain.
Yes to the space rat, Adam, and Cray.
I have to say "no" to the Xenomorph-lite monster from Split Second, because its moral agency is really questionable.
It's a cool Cowboy Cop movie, no doubt about it (and hilariously enough, London is submerged because of global warming... in 2008), but the whole plot is a mess. Namely, it seems to be the case that in some earlier draft of the script the monster was supposed to be a shapeshifter who would turn into a 9-foot tall armor-plated killing machine only when it is about to kill. That's how he's supposed to be able to do things like visit the police precinct indiscreetly or write small letters in blood on the wall.
However, that's not the movie we got. It never changes from one to the other onscreen, leaving a gaping plothole that instead gives the impression like they started out with a human serial killer before they thought "You remember Aliens? That was a cool movie, wasn't it? Let's use those!" and changed the climax accordingly. Because it never talks (in fact, it barely even appears onscreen), we have no idea why it kills based on the lunar cycle, why it goes after Stone at all, why is Stone a psychic, and a whole lot of other unanswered questions, we simply can't assume that a space alien monster like that has moral agency.
Also, that "dragging souls down to Hell" thing mentioned in the effortpost above? Never confirmed anywhere. It just eats human hearts for some reason. They have no idea if it's from hell, or another dimension, or outer space. Even the Creeper from Jeepers Creepers had more personality and backstory than this.
edited 11th Jan '17 1:23:50 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Yeah, Morgen's points solidify my concern. No to rat Satan.
Caesar
First up, "quality" of a film or how messy it is should not have anything to do with a candidate qualifying. If the candidates' crimes and personality is outlined, then that should be enough.
Second off....what are you talking about it was never confirmed that it was from Hell? The creature draws Satanic symbols on it's victims, attacks during lunar cycles that have to do with astrological signs of Hell, darkness, and death, and the film itself settles on the idea in the end that it's a demonic entity.
No, the creature never says "Hey guys, I'm a demon, catch me!", but when all the main characters in the story are saying "Yeah, this thing's a demonic rat creature that eats it's victims hearts to consume their DNA, memories, and soul to drag to Hell", chances are, that's what the film makers wanted it to come across as.
Finally, the reason it goes after Stone is....obvious, to me at least. Along with the whole "sadist" thing, the creature has a psychic connection to him. A psychic connection that is there because of it scratching him, something it does to all it's victims, it's just that all of them get....well, dead before the connection actually does anything.
Look, if someone votes 'Nay' because of lack of origins or moral agency issues or something, that's fine. I myself am basically neutral. But the facts are that this thing quite obviously has human intelligence, is a sadistic creep, and is from Hell. I don't think a mutant rat or alien from space would be drawing satanic symbols or attacking based on astrological signs of evil and darkness.
edited 11th Jan '17 1:45:48 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lizzid people!
Don't know about Rat Satan, but there seems to be some human intelligence there.
Ok, that is simply putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say "this movie is bad quality, thus this character doesn't count". Yes, if the plot is so messy that we're mostly left in the dark about a characters' origins, motives, and even personality, that absolutely affects whether they qualify or not.
And no, not all the characters agree that it's a demon from hell. That's Durkin in particular who comes to that conclusion, and Stone basically goes "ok, let's roll with that" while they gear up for war. We never see it drag any souls to hell, so we only have the word of a police psychologist with a passing interest in astrology to go on.
But given the carvings it marks into its victims (fair point), let's say that you're right. It is from hell. That still doesn't establish moral agency because it still lacks any real personality because of its lack of screentime.
edited 11th Jan '17 1:55:15 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
My question: In general, do we assume moral agency unless proven otherwise?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Caesar
Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like I was putting words in your mouth. I was just saying that, while the film is a mess, that shouldn't have anything to do with a candidate counting if one can still get 90% of the picture of said candidate. Yes, there are plot holes when it comes to Rat Satan, but they're not something that should matter when it comes to disqualification IMO.
And if people wanna vote 'No' because of moral agency, that's perfectly fine. I said as such in my above post. All I'm saying is that the evidence that Rat Satan-thingy is from Hell is there, and that saying otherwise when the film itself seems to go with that interpretation feels...odd to me.
Again, sorry if I came off rude. Didn't mean to, just typed that thing in a real rush. I honestly don't have strong feelings on Demon Rat, so if he goes up or not isn't a major concern. Just wanna make sure everyone knows I didn't fabricate or pull anything out of my ass while making the EP.
edited 11th Jan '17 1:56:37 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lizzid people!
IMO, it seems to have moral agency.
@ ACW: I really think that depends on what we're dealing with. Human or human...ish? Probably has all their mental faculties unless proven otherwise (insane, possessed, etc.). Alien or something that's clearly a monster? Well, then it better have some good proof to convince us that it thinks along human lines (dialogue, other characters expositing on it, etc.)
@ Ravok: Sure, just trying to help.
This is a thing we've been over in the past when people conflated a character's cruelty with having a moral agency. Sadism doesn't prove that a creature is able to make a moral choice. It just proves that it's evil, born so or not.
Again, let's compare this thing to someone like The Creeper. Is it cruel? Well yes, given the horrible things it does to its victims by using their bodies to create its own depraved artwork. That clearly goes beyond even just needing their body parts to nourish itself. It's also quite intelligent, given how it's able to operate human tools and pose as one semi-convincingly. But intelligence doesn't give it morality. By the end of both movies, we know so little about it that we can't say one way or the other that it does.
edited 11th Jan '17 2:15:10 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
to Massam, Jack the Ripper, Stroller, Edward Braddock, the Party Crasher, and Inspector Thomas Cray.
to Kagari Hinata; seems like she genuinely cared about Tsubaki.
I'll abstain on the alien rat-Satan killer thing (or whatever the hell it is).
The Party Crasher and Inspector Thomas Cray. Abstaining on the DEMONIC SPACE RAT FROM HELL.
Jack has a bunch of s and no s, so here's my write-up:
- The Strange Talent of Luther Strode: Jack the Ripper from The Legend of Luther Strode is a super-powered serial killer who was released from the box in which he was bound in order to fight Luther. After being freed, he quickly disembowels a young crime boss and takes the first opportunity to kill the man who unbound him. Traveling to a crowded mall, Jack then absolutely butchers hundreds of the innocent civilians shopping there. When Luther and his girlfriend Petra find the grisly scene, they discover that Jack hadn’t actually killed anyone, but mutilated them and made sculptures from their bodies while leaving them alive with their pain. When Petra leads the survivors out of the mall after he tries to get her to inadvertently shoot them, Jack becomes enraged, wanting have more 'fun' with them. Believing Luther to be at his mercy, Jack then taunts him with how he plans to kill Petra in front of him. Desiring nothing but to see the world 'drown in blood', Jack stands out even in a comic filled with crazed Blood Knights.
edited 11th Jan '17 3:01:21 PM by Camberf
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Drafts please. Incidentally, earlier today I ordered Strange Talent, Legend, and Legacy.
If it's serial killer season in the thread again, I might bring up what was supposed to be my third Halloween candidate from a few months back. Stay tuned.