During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RIP Toriyama
Also, legitimate question, how should I proceed with Ormon and Sharpie's write-ups since they're crimes are almost exactly the same? Should I just spring for one entry for the both of them, ala Kick and Sublime? Or should I separate the entries like normal?
edited 24th Sep '16 9:09:43 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gray Fly
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Gray Fly. The air plane crash that he commits comes as a direct order from Dio Brando himself, which makes the latter the main cause of the event. Gray Fly himself isn't even that unique in his own category of heinousness when compared to Cioccolata who goes on a destructive killing spree against his boss's orders.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I think I should rewatch the episode at some point. I've seen/read Stardust Crusaders once already, but since that part was WAY too long and had WAY too many Monster of the Week villains, I simply can't remember most of the whole story arc.
edited 24th Sep '16 10:32:19 AM by Kookosbanaani
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Probably the former?
edited 24th Sep '16 9:27:40 AM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
As for Gray Fly, don't know either way about the loyalty, but you said we see flashbacks of him killing hundreds? If this was before working for Dio, I'd say that's enough at least in terms of his deeds.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ravok, I would recomend you do two seperate entries for them. They share most of their crimes, but their actual agenda's, personalities, characters and roles in the story, are quite different.
edited 24th Sep '16 12:07:35 PM by MGD107
Avatar by Leafsnake
That's not established. We get that he crashes planes, and we get that he was working for DIO. We don't know if there was an overlap. Though if the stuff from Part 4 is any indication, Dio was recruiting followers and giving them stands, so he may have been committing these crimes whilst he was working under Dio.
I'm assuming he was bringing planes down whilst under Dio's employ.
edited 24th Sep '16 1:23:35 PM by DrPsyche
Reminder that I'll be seeing if anybody from Abby counts today.
Anymore thoughts on Kudrow and Burrell? So far, counting myself, it's 3 2 for Kudrow, and 2 3 for Burrell.
I am not sure why they don't push it for some people. Kudrow has four adult murders by proxy, the attempted murder of a 9 year old, the attempted murder of the protagonist, and the ordering for Burrell to start a shootout with the FBI. Burrell has five adult murders, the attempted murder of a 9 year old, and the attempted murders of the various FBI agents in the climax. I think that several adult murders and an attempted child murder is enough.
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I WANNA vote Gray Fly up (if only so that the JoJo page won't only have 5), but I gotta abstain.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Late for Ormon and Gelder.
Gray Fly.
Second day at comic con, met Felissa Rose again, and took another pic with her. Also met Steve Whalen aka Roache from The People Under the Stairs. Got a few things signed. My sister also met Emily Kinney, or Beth Greene from The Walking Dead. Comic con was easily the highlight of my weekend.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Gelder
I have a question. I'm currently reading an AH.com story, and i'm wondering, do the rules regarding fanfics also apply to these stories as well? Just curious.
From what I read, it sounds like fan-work characters are only inadmissable if they're canon characters portrayed differently. What about OCs or OC stand-ins within these works?
Take for example, Margaret Fernandez aka Dark Lord Sabine, from the fanfiction Fairy Without Wings, the selected maternal parent for Fairy Tail character Jellal Fernandez.
In the story, Margaret is first introduced leading a dark guild serving under Hades. Said guild, under her orders, sets fire to a port town in order to draw out Fairy Tail, who are in the middle of a mission. Margaret spends her entire screen time laying a curb stomp to most of the main cast until Gildarts finally puts her down.
Before her defeat in this initial introduction, Margaret boasts to Erza's face how little she cares for Jellal, sold him into slavery to the Tower of Heaven HERSELF and wants nothing more than to become Queen of the World simply because she believes she is fit to rule.
After being broken out of jail, Margaret is then directly employed to Grimoire Heart and tries to be The Starscream to Hades by taking more of the Tenrou Tree's might for herself than his plan originally called for when he asked her to out and out corrupt the damn thing.
She would have succeeded in killing Erza if not for Mavis' timely intervention. And tortured Lucy before she decided to kill her while the latter was incapable of fighting back against her.
She has threatened to turn Meredy into a bloodstain on somebody's wall for backtalking her. She laughed her ass off when Ultear told her how she brainwashed Jellal and used him for Grimoire Heart's own end.
And to top it all off, her history sheds any and all absence of a Freudian Excuse. Margaret was raised in a cult that worshipped a dark god and then made Margaret its vessel. The demon took possession of Margaret's body and made her slaughter all she worshiped. When it let her have back control, Margaret laughed her ass off at the power she realized was at her disposal. She later forcefully subjugated the dark entity within her and used her power as she saw fit, never again letting it take control of her.
Oh, but that's not even getting into HOW Jellal was conceived. Margaret laid waste to an entire legal guild, Shining Lodestone, beating down its strongest members and then RAPING its guild master in front of the war torn members of the guild FOR NO OTHER REASON than to BREAK the guild's morale completely. Said rape was how she got pregnant. She killed her victim after she was done.
And through it all, Margaret doesn't think she's doing anything wrong and never tries to rationalize or justify her actions. She simply acts as though she's entitled to everything she does, simply because she has the power to do it. Any allegiance she makes (Hades and now Morrigan) seems to only be temporary as a means to her own ends. Anyone is expendable to her if it'll get her closer to her goal.
So, with all that said, is she qualified? She originally was listed on the work's YMMV page. Checking to see if it still belongs there.
Margaret
Lord of Hell
Even some canon characters portrayed differently can qualify on occasion if the setting is changed. Kirby from There Will Be Brawl, or Discord from the Pony POV series for example.
edited 24th Sep '16 5:29:12 PM by Awesomekid42
Speaking of fanfics, there was an example I'd been planning to bring up but keep putting off and there was a rather weird plotline that I was unsure of how to handle when bringing it up.
There was a character in canon who tends to depending on the incarnation have No Fourth Wall or constantly break it. When he showed up in the fanfic he took issue with the tone of the 'fic and the fact that it was a fanfic with an OC as the main character. So he tried kicking him out of the story and into a different franchises so everything would go back to how it happened in canon.
This happened multiple times until the arc was over and resulted in the following chapters temporarily acting like the story was always a fanfic about the other series. A couple of those chapters featured villains from the other series, with some of them having a character who was in canon qualified as a Complete Monster appearing briefly, so would the heinous standard of each of those works have to be taken into account when proposing any examples?
to Dr. Gelder and Margaret Fernandez.
to Nicholas Kudrow, Peter Burrell, and Gray Fly.
About Gray Fly: I was under the impression that he was already committing crimes of this kind before DIO recruited him, but something didn't seem right: while it is possible for someone to attain a Stand without the Stand Arrows, it is known to be rare.
I looked at a series timeline which lists two key events happening the same year: 1). DIO's group acquiring the Stand Arrows and 2). the previous plane crash attributed to Gray Fly. Now, we aren't told which happened first, but the implication is that Gray Fly probably received his Stand from DIO and then entered his service.
In light of that, he may have just been following orders, so I'll change my vote to a .
Oh well, even with D'Arby cut, there are still 5 easy keeps. I had a page image in mind BTW.
No on Gray Fly. Has D'Arby been cut (alongside our other cuts) from the page proper yet?
Lord of Hell
He was still there when I checked a few hours ago.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Nah, he's still there. I need a refresher, should one of us just request the cut, or is it just something done whenever the examples that need adding to locked pages are all grouped together and shipped out?
While ascribing emotion to the fish is going a bit far, great whites are social so this isn't as far fetched as it sounds. Though if the author had wanted it to be really frightening he'd have had the male die and the female survive—female sharks are larger than males in most species, including great whites.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ambar, is Serumaga a clear cut? If so, I'll request it when I request adding Masucci. In this case, since nothing's being added (compare with, say, Serumaga and the Secret Six stuff), anyone can request it.
Also, I'm gonna try something new. Each week, before working on the batch, I'm gonna post what I have as pending, so people can tell me if I need to add or remove anything. Here's what I got now:
- Roderick "Jack the Ripper" Whittle from Savage (me)
- Lord Nidrus Hellebore expansion (Nrjxll)
- Acacia (and Joie?) (Lightysnake)
- Dr. Gelder from Hook Jaw (Lightysnake)
- Sharpie (and Ormon?) from Superior (Ravok)
- Roch "Moses" Thériault rewrite (Scraggle)
- Roderick "Jack the Ripper" Whittle
- Current Writeups to Be Expanded in the Future:
- Prime Minister Honest manga (Lightysnake? Clown-Face?)
edited 24th Sep '16 11:04:42 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Who were all the agreed cuts, again? I can file in a cut request with everyone at once.
That seems fair. I just personally took it as genuine loyalty.
Still, while I disagree, I at least understand if Gray Fly counts, so thankfully I won't be making as big a deal about this as I did with Cook Cook. Subjective trope and all that.