During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Clown-Face: Damn, I forgot about that book series. Is there anyone here who's read all the Destroymen books?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Wild Child
Speaking of unapproved entries, there's this on The Strain (TV series).
- Complete Monster: The Master's sadism was brought over from the books.
Maybe we should add Matt Engarde, Kristoph Gavin, and Manfred Von Karma to the "Never Again" list. They've been brought up and contested quite a bit and each time nobody's brought new evidence to support their removal. Matt may have loved his cat Shoe, but he was perfectly okay with leaving it to starve if not for De Killer as I've stated before. Plus as much as I hate to admit it, in several cases an example can remain if the "dog" they pet is their pet dog or cat. The thing is though, Matt never mentions Shoe again and only acts like he cares about it when he's doing his ditzy Surfer Dude actor persona. It's clear the "real" Matt only thought of Shoe as property like Celeste Inpax.
Also kind of a tangent, but Maya is not a child in Justice For All. She's the legal age of consent in America and not a minor in almost every state or country, she just can't drink in most states.
And as FW said, the date for discussing SOJ can't come soon enough.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Lord of Hell
Nitpick, but this bit about Phantoms entry isn't accurate.
- To top it all off, if one counts the murder done by his associate, Ted Tonate, he has the highest death toll of the entire franchise.
If we include Tonate murdering somebody that gives Phantom a body count of 4. (The woman Tonate murdered, Athenas mother, Apollos childhood friend, and the real Bobby Fulbright.) Joe Darke from the first games fifth case had a death count of 5 (and attempted to kill two more, Neil and Ema.) And fellow CM Alba would have the same body count, if not higher (Ordering the deaths of Cece Yew and Deid Mann, directly killing Masque De Masque the second and Manny Coachen, and I don't quite recall if he ordered Faradays death, but if he did, Albas body count would exceed Phantoms.)
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cut it. There's nothing even explaining the guy.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ah. Disregard cutting it then. ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
edited 15th Sep '16 5:53:09 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
I just realized that the third Rampage film was released 9 days ago according to imdb here. We will have to discuss Bill again in 5 days.
I can expand on the Master. He's a clear cut keeper.
Destroyermen is on my to-read list
Yes, but what really makes Phantom stand out is the courtroom bombing where he nearly killed a entire courtroom of innocents plus Simon Blackquill and Apollo. He wounded Apollo too and put him in the hospital so he's got plenty of attempted murders at his feet too.
Also most of Joe Darke's murders (or at least the first few) were accidental manslaughter. Plus he was not mentally sound, Phantom on the other hand was perfectly sound and was just a sociopath.
edited 15th Sep '16 6:24:53 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Lord of Hell
Still, it specifically talks about the actual deaths he's responsible, otherwise the if you count Tonate thing wouldn't even have been needed. I just think that bit should be removed.
Phantom is still a CM though.
edited 15th Sep '16 6:21:44 PM by Awesomekid42
I'll gladly rewrite Phantom given that I did the first writeup and I know a lot about Dual Destinies. Unless Fried Warthog wants to do it.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Dual Destinies is actually the one game in the Ace Attorney series that I haven't played. :I (Granted I spoiled myself on a lot of details so I know what all happened)
So I'm totally okay with you editing Phantom's writeup.
So I've got a character that Lightysnake and I have been discussing for a while. Going to do the write-up and see what we think.
Who is Maurisk? What has he done?
Johann Maurisk is a university student and a member of a pro-democratic conspiracy against the Police State of Vordan, alongside fellow students Ben, Faro, Sarton, Cora, and Raesinia. Unbeknownst to Maurisk and the others Raesinia is actually Crown Princess Raesinia, who is using them to overthrow secret police chief Duke Orlanko and take her life back into her own hands (as well as set up a government that can rule once she herself is no longer in the picture; thanks to a demon Raseinia does not age and anticipates having to fake her death early in her reign).
In Book 2, Maurisk doesn't do anything overtly villainous. He's the most boring member of the conspiracy, and survives where Ben and Faro do not. He ends up elected to the newly recreated Deputies-General as a leader of the Conservative faction, and is later made President. He also finds out that Raesinia is the Queen and reads her the riot act for using the group of them, blaming her for the deaths of their companions, and insisting she ought to pay for what she's done. That's about it for that book.
Then Book 3 rolls around and he's suddenly Maximilien Robespierre. He reinvents his supposedly Conservative faction and makes them more radical than the Radicals. He tries to have Raesinia blown up at a meeting of the Deputies-General, regardless of the significant collateral damage. He introduces The Spikenote and uses it for mass executions. He makes failing as a general punishable by death. He takes the anti-foreigner xenophobia that Raesinia's crew stirred up in Book 2 and uses it to execute not only all foreigners, but anyone who is wearing foreign clothes. He drives the public to denounce their neighbours for any and all causes. He purges the Radicals and has them all taken to The Spike. He purges any political opposition, including trying to have Janus bet Vahlnich, their most popular and successful general, executed. He cuts a deal with their enemies in the Sworn Church to sell Raesinia and the Thousand Names (a powerful magical artifact) to them, in exchange for an end to the war—and after arresting her, shanks Raesinia himself to test her immortality.
By the time Maurisk is toppled by a coup led by Raesinia and Janus, Vordan is a revolutionary Police State, the rights he originally fought to have granted the people are effectively gone, society is in tatters, and an unknown number of people—clearly in the thousands or tens of thousands—have been Spiked for a vast array of crimes, real and imagined.
Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?
Yes. Maurisk kills more people than any prior villain had and more than anyone since. The series is set to end with Book 5, due sometime next year, and the only villain left who might trump him is The Beast, a mind-controlling demon that claims to be the living embodiment of God's wrath. He's fantasy!Robespierre, and has the bodycount to match. In a series where other villains include demon-collecting religious fanatics who rule the world through pawns, a lunatic religious cult that's a thinly veiled metaphor for Islamist revolution, and the Devil, Maurisk has so far blown them all out of the water.
Easy pass here.
Does he have any redeeming qualities?
In Book 2, Maurisk, while distant and driven by ideology, seems to have actually cared about the other members of the conspiracy. He's outraged by the discovery that Raesinia was using them, and lays the deaths of Ben, Faro, and Danton at her feet. When she asks after Cora and Sarton, he refuses to believe that she actually cares about them—yet gives her the information anyway. He comes off as angry but also confused about what to make of her identity.
By Book 3, this seems to be gone. He now treats Raesinia's using them as a personal insult, and seems to be more offended on ideological grounds than anything else. That said, it's never explicitly stated that he doesn't care about them anymore; Raesinia assumes he doesn't, but he never agrees with her. Maybe he's gotten over it. Maybe his alcoholism is driving his personality change (see below). Maybe his rage is simply overriding other feeling. Maybe it's just bad writing in an otherwise solid series. What does hold true, however, is that in his own private thoughts he goes over how he considered Raesinia to be one of his closest companions, and that her betrayal is evidence that, quote, "the old chains still held." It should be noted that Maurisk's closest partner in crime, and the inventor of the Spike, is Georges Sarton, the last remaining member of the original conspirators recruited by Raesinia.
On the subject of whether he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist, he's certainly presented as one in Book 2. In Book 3, Raesinia believes he's set some sort of record for selling out his principles, and given his slaughter of the Radical faction, his transformation of his own Conservative faction into the new radicals, and his collaboration with the enemy there's certainly a case to be made for that. Maurisk sees it differently. He tells Raesinia he's collaborating with the enemy because the country needs peace, and giving the enemy nations and the Sworn Church what they want is a small price to pay for that. More importantly, in his own thoughts, he thinks about how he'd hoped that the creation of the Deputies-General would free the people, but that Raesinia's betrayal is proof that nothing has changed and that society will have be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up in order to truly free everyone. This is not a one off thought either; he repeatedly muses on it across several viewpoint chapters.
Long story short, there's several potential redeeming features here, and I don't think they can all be discounted. Maurisk is willing to compromise his principles, and is a hypocrite when it comes to the methods he'll use to hang onto power, but he never entirely abandons his desire to build a better society for everyone—even if he's now the only person who'd ever think the society he's constructing is any good.
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
The revelation that the revolution was coopted by Raesinia is Maurisk's driving motivation in Book 3. His conviction that he was being used by her is what makes him abandon his previous stance as a comparative moderate and decide on the full destruction of the state. He comes back to it repeatedly, and it's very much at the core of who he is in that book. Raesinia may not see it as a betrayal, and she's by far the more sympathetic character from the audience's perspective (and gets far more POV sections), but it's obvious that Maurisk sees it that way, and that it's where his paranoia is coming from.
There's also the matter of his alcoholism. Maurisk in Book 2 is a teetotaler. In Book 3, he's drinking in every scene he's in. This might seem like bad writing again, but it's more likely, given his near constant state of intoxication that he's got a problem he's simply given into. His alcohol use also fuels his paranoia. In one scene he stares at his empty flask of brandy and is convinced that someone has been stealing it, and that this is further proof that he's surrounded by traitors. By the end of the book, he's worked his way through a wine cellar's worth of booze and shows no signs of stopping, and in the scenes from his perspective, his thoughts are frequently disorganized and his mind described as "swimming".
The standard for a Freudian Excuse is "does it explain their actions?" The perceived betrayal by someone he trusted as a fellow conspirator explains Maurisk's paranoia, and the behaviour that stems from it, especially once you throw the exacerbating factor of his consistent inebriation into it. Horrid as his actions are—and they are horrid—I actually found myself feeling a slight degree of sympathy for the SOB as I watched his downward spiral.
Final verdict?
Maurisk has the highest attempted bodycount of anyone in the story so far. The only character who seems likely to surpass him is The Beast, the setting version of Satan. However, he's initially presented as a sympathetic character with friends and people he cares about, and while he gets very bad, very fast once obtaining power, he never entirely ditches that characterization, or his former status as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Worse yet, his most heinous crimes are committed while in the midst of an alcohol-fueled paranoid breakdown, brought on by being in way over his head and finding out that a close companion was a member of the nobility he hated.
On reflection I don't think he qualifies. There's too many potential redeeming characteristics to discount them all, and while his anger over Raesinia's perceived betrayal may not justify all he does, it certainly explains it, especially when compounded with his substance abuse. He's a nasty piece of work, but he fails meeting the trope.
Thoughts?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Johann Maurisk. Like you said, way too many redeeming qualities (even if some are a bit hazy) with a Freudian Excuse to boot.
What series is this from anyway?
edited 15th Sep '16 9:58:56 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
The Shadow Campaigns. I'll also Maurisk, as someone who's been following the series.
Unfortunately, I have to thumbs down Maurisk as well...I think taken all together, the potential redeeming qualities are too much. The only probable qualifier at this point is The Beast itself if that pans out.
to Johann Maurisk.
Wild Child
Maurisk.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Okay, it's officially been two weeks since Kulipari: An Army of Frogs came out. And after some discussion with Lightysnake, I decided to effortpost one of the show's main villains.
Who Is He?
Lord Marmoo is one of the two main villains of the first season (or series; still no word on if the show's getting a second season). He's the hardened leader of a scorpion army who longs to destroy the Amphibilands and create his own Scorpion Empire known as the Arachnilands.
What Does He Do?
When the series begins, Marmoo's army tries to breach the Amphibilands so they can hold the village under siege. But the scorpions fail to get through due to the Veil, a magical force field that keeps evil-doers like Marmoo at bay. With no other option, Lord Marmoo leads his army to Queen Jarrah's castle, a spider witch who knows of sorcery that can destroy the Veil. A battle ensues between Marmoo and Jarrah's forces, and Marmoo loses. Knowing he's been defeated, Marmoo and his brother Commander Pigo surrender, and are captured by the spider. After some negotiations, Marmoo and Jarrah decide to work together. First Jarrah has him collect dirt from the area around the Amphililands, followed by a flower known as the High Wattleflower. Commander Pigo and some scorpions breach the Veil temporarily to gather the flower, but only succeed in acquiring a twig. Commander Pigo also kidnaps Gee during his raid.
Commander Pigo returns to Lord Marmoo, where the scorpion proceeds to berate his brother for his failure. With no other option, Lord Marmoo, along with the mercenary Killara and his army of reptiles, spend their time around camp gearing up for the upcoming battle. Queen Jarrah, naturally, is unimpressed by the twig Marmoo's army acquired. Lord Marmoo threatens Jarrah, who proceeds to threaten him back. Later on, after Darel rescues Gee and Marmoo promptly throws another fit, he sates Jarrah's hunger by sacrificing one of his frog servants to her (although he's saved before this can happen). Lord Marmoo's army hits a setback after Darel and Gee set his camp on fire, but it's only a minor one, as Lord Marmoo orders his army to head for the village.
Lord Marmoo's army camps outside the Veil while Jarrah prepares to lower the defenses. When the Veil's down, Marmoo's army invades the Amphibilands. During the invasion, several frogs are wounded (and possibly Killed Offscreen) including Jir, and Marmoo successfully (and fatally) stings Sergu the Turtle King, Jarrah's former teacher, in the back. Most of the frogs have been subdued, and Lord Marmoo's forces have won. ...Except not really, as Killara betrays Marmoo, and helps Darel stab Lord Marmoo to death with his father's dagger. The end.
....Except not really, as it turns out (after a Time Skip) that Queen Jarrah resurrected him from the dead. Lord Marmoo, hell-bent on revenge, demands to start another assault on the Amphibilands, but can't because he's not strong enough. When Jarrah refuses to use her magic to strengthen his body, Lord Marmoo almost kills her, only stopping because he knows he needs Jarrah or he'll spend the rest of his life being "soft as a slug." After Queen Jarrah suffers a humiliating defeat from Yabber and the Kulipari, Jarrah orders Marmoo to head to the Platypus Village so he can find the Stargazer and kill all the frogs. After Marmoo reminds her that he's still soft, Jarrah grants him the strength he desires, and he repays Jarrah by killing her. Marmoo storms the Platypus Village looking for the Stargazer, gets into a fight with Quoba, Darel, and some other frogs, and ends up killing Chief Olba, the leader of the Amphibilands, during the scuffle.
In the penultimate episode, Marmoo turns on what's left of Jarrah's forces and demands for Fahlga to lower the Veil. Since she's not powerful enough, he tears down Jarrah's castle and tries to kill her. Before he can, Fahlga finds out that the frogs are lowering the Veil. So Marmoo does exactly what you'd think he'd do. Long story short, Marmoo's army invades the Amphibilands, the scorpions burn down the whole village, Marmoo pulverizes the Kulipari, the scorpions takes most of the villagers hostage, Marmoo personally kills Arabanoo, Marmoo subdues Darel in combat, and the frog is forced to surrender. After the battle is over, Marmoo forces the villagers to leave, gloating how they will all dry up and perish in the desert. Even after the frogs leave, Marmoo decides to hoard all of the water from the surrounding villages, just to ensure his control over the lands. His plan is soon foiled, however, when Quoba and Darel drop a rock that causes a whirlpool to form and suck all the water out of the Arachnilands (Long story). Lord Marmoo falls into said whirlpool, where he seemingly drowns.
A while back when he was younger, Marmoo fought the frogs during an event known as the Hiding Wars. He was presumably about to win the war when Sergu created the Veil. Ever since then, Marmoo has spent his time plotting to get back at the frogs any way he can.
Redeeming Qualities?
Hell no. Even in the season finale, when the wounded are being forced into exile, Lord Marmoo doesn't even give the frogs the chance to take any supplies with them when they leave.
Does He Have Any Loved Ones?
No. Now yes, he has a brother that he "cares" about, but this bit of dialogue here explains his feelings.
Marmoo: "I trust him. He's more than a soldier. He's my brother."
Jarrah: "Really? Don't you eat your brothers?"
Marmoo: (Beat) "Only the weak ones."
Lightysnake and I talked about this for a bit. I was almost tempted to disregard even effortposting him until we discussed whether or not he truly cared for Pigo. The bit of dialogue above isn't Marmoo saying he loves his brother. He's telling Jarrah he trusts in Pigo because he's his most valuable asset. While all of Marmoo's brothers and sisters were eaten or killed for being weak, Pigo survived. His survival indicated that Pigo was very strong and very valuable—valuable enough to be his Dragon, his most loyal commander.
Shortly after Marmoo wins the final battle, Marmoo declares that only strong scorpions are allowed in the Arachnilands, and any wounded scorpions can either leave forever, or stay and be eaten by the stronger scorpions. Pigo's tail was broken during battle. Knowing this, and considering that Pigo realized Marmoo Came Back Wrong, it isn't long before Pigo and his own band of scorpions are forced to defect, considering their other option was to be eaten.
Heinous Standard Issues?
Nope. The only other character to match him by heinousness is Queen Jarrah. But even then, her bodycount is much lower, and Queen Jarrah might have some kind of friendly relationship with her apprentice, Fahlga, that we're not aware of.
Final Verdict?
Keeper. At no point does he say he loves his brother Pigo, nor does he express said love to him. And in the finale, he gave Pigo and the other wounded scorpions the option to either go into exile, or to be eaten. Clearly that's not love. All he cares about is strength, destroying the Amphibilands (which he does), and creating his own empire of scorpions. He doesn't give a damn who he has to sacrifice or kill to achieve said goal, and he's more than eager to betray anyone the second they're deemed useless.
But as always, feel free to share your thoughts/comments.
edited 16th Sep '16 5:33:04 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Let me point out that Marmoo threatens Pigo in the very first scene they share and disregards his safety at least twice. When he collapses the home of the spiders, Pigo desperately shouts they'll all die in the collapse and Marmoo roars: "Not me!"...and later he gives Pigo a choice between permanent exile and being eaten....and not all of the injured scorpions chose to leave.
Also, when Jarrah heals Marmoo, it doesn't affect his agency. He just becomes drunk with power and increasing ambition and rage, so nothing he can blame on anyone else.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Marmoo seems somewhat like a standard Evil Overlord...except for the burning down a village part. I'll give him a slight ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
As for Jarrah, I do have to quibble about one thing: She "might have some kind of friendly relationship with her apprentice, Fahlga, that we're not aware of." Now, if her body count's not as high, fine, but MAYBE having a friendly relationship isn't disqualifying (for all we know, Ajax and Angel Dust had a friendly relationship. We didn't see anything, ergo he's not disqualified).
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Hmm. That's a very good point. For a while, I was bouncing back and forth between whether or not I'd end up discussing Marmoo or Jarrah. But given what Marmoo does to Jarrah, let alone his actions in the twelfth episode, it seemed like his list of evil deeds exceeded Jarrah's, so I disregarded an effortpost on her.
Lizzid people!
Wild Child
Lord Marmoo.
Yeah, Ladyhawke is a good film, but the Bishop is pretty generic and doesn't really do much beyond curse the heroes...he's the diet coke of evil. Only one calorie; not evil enough.
edited 15th Sep '16 5:05:30 PM by Lightysnake